REMOTE VIEWING

RV Debunking

www.firedocs.com/remoteviewing/RVDebunking.cfm


Wow, I'm IT! again. My turn.

Responding to: A very public email message
Subject: Another: Frustrated Viewer from PJ Ganier & Friends
Posted by: Jonina Dourif as Pele
Where: Technical-Remote-Viewers Email List
Ref: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TechnicalRemoteViewers/message/3624



Other folks like you can add debunks if you wish!
Or tell me how much you love/hate mine if that's more fun.
Use my Contact Form.

Introduction

A fellow posted on the TRV list (he had bought the videos they sell) saying that he'd done fine with the videos, but now that he was using other targets--in this case RVTargets.com--he wasn't accurate anymore. ("I used the self study course, Generation 2 tapes, which worked great until I met RVTargets.com.")

Jonina Dourif (posting as Pele) responded, adding "I visited another of PJ's sites..." -- suggesting that while he might have been referring to RVTargets.com, either she was thinking that was my site (it is not), or she was referring to my TKR RV Galleries.

The RV Galleries are larger in scope, but as far as offering tasks (targets) goes, offers them for anybody so in that regard is similar to RVTargets.com. I wasn't sure whether her comments were referring to RV Targets or to RV Galleries. But it hardly matters as the response concerning RV itself is the same.

Despite the fellow never mentioned me and the website wasn't mine, it inspired a long ranting email insulting me personally. Gee whiz. A lot of people emailed me about it. I am trying to respond to the RV portion and not rise to the bait of all the personal stuff. I hope I succeed.

The complete post I'm responding to is at the bottom of the page in grey.


All the following in red is quoting Jonina Dourif as 'Pele' on the TRV list:

The targets are not cued (which means they are not given titles of the events)

This goes for both sites, although the Galleries does have a 'task name' field a tasker can use. (We usually don't. I consider it unnecessary; it is there because some people like it, and future software expansions that open tasking to the public will use it.)

Everybody in the field has different views on this. I accept the science view, since it was science that defined Remote Viewing to begin with. That view happens to be shared by all the truly good viewers I know, which to me gives it more weight as well. That view basically says that anybody can remote view most anything if they intend to do so and are decent at viewing (that last part being the big hitch of course). A "title of event" is not required, a special number is not required.

Of course there are other views, such as hers above. There are additional views in the field, for example, HRVG holds the view that every target should have a number and very specifically, a person concentrating on 'connecting' that number to the target in a psychic manner (meaning some human besides the viewer must know the number).

People are welcome to hold whatever opinion they like. My point is that there is more than one opinion about this. As there are decades of research supporting the basics of RV, science tends to be model I myself use for that.

and they are given 10 digits (which is very wrong.)

Now there is an actual quantity of integers required in order to remote view a target? ("I'm sorry. I could have been a world class remote viewer on that target, but there was an extra digit on the end of that task number.") Come on. She's kidding.

There are images (we can't tell if they were actual photographs or not)

RVTargets.com uses photos (often cropped--which is just fine for RV practice, as the target IS 'the focus of the feedback photo at the time the photo was taken'). Most all the targets in the galleries are photos. (Galleries has little 'basic' stuff because it'd be reinventing the wheel--RVTargets.com has thousands of basics, no need to compete.)

and the images portrayed on each one was a variation on scenes of extreme mundanity. and triviality. Like a picture of a stained glass window or A picture of a girl in a dance class, etc.

The world is mundane and trivial. Even plenty of intell targets are just a building, a person, an object. That person probably will not be in a volcano, atomic bomb, on mars, or any other "exciting" locale or event.... but some boring, normal environ.

In addition to her "FireDocs" site, I stumbled upon another one of PJ's internet endeavors the other day. It is called: "The Remote Viewer Fields Free database directory"

fyi, http://www.RVDirectory.org is what she means.

It purports to give remote viewers the opportunity to contact one another and advertise their services for the public sector. In my opinion, without a standardized qualification, these claims only perpetuate the existing pollution

Standardized qualifications could someday come around, except the only people legitimately qualified to judge that would be scientists.

The TKR RV Galleries do offer a way for any viewer to demonstrate skill publicly under double/solo-blind conditions of course. But if every group of viewers has built-in excuses about why they couldn't possibly view for anybody else, because a human doesn't know both target and task number, or a written 'name' cue hasn't been assigned, or the task number is not an exact quantity of digits, or any one of a dozen other reasons, then getting people together into a common area for demonstration can't happen--even one as open to any method as TKR.

& further confuse The idea of "what Remote Viewing is" for the public as it spins stories about notions of myths and RV Technology ignorance

This is not even up for debate. There is no point to she and I arguing it. Facts exist regardless of opinion in this matter, and anybody could go to source for this.

The term "Remote Viewing" was coined in the ASPR science lab in the early 1970's to describe "psychic functioning done within an approved science protocol." Swann called his methods a form of RV because he designed them to be used within that context--which is the one he worked in constantly. Swann in his autobiography "To Kiss Earth Goodbye," describes "imagining projecting himself out of body" to see the target--hardly CRV/TRV methods, yet he was considered remote viewing then. McMoneagle has several books which are very clear about this issue as well, about the set of science rules that define the RV protocol, vs. the psychic methodologies which sometimes are called 'protocols'. Every person in the RV science sector knows what "an RV protocol" means. There were several 'remote viewers' doing 'remote viewing' officially for 15 years before Swann's first-run experimental methods even had a chance to be invented and applied, so RV can't be defined by his methods. It is the science criteria that 'defines' remote viewing as different from psi work.

She lists it as: "A free database directory for Remote Viewers and others in the Remote Viewing Field" But there's a caveat (in small print below) that says: "Being listed here does NOT imply any association with this website or owner. Warning: We do not monitor veracity of any info submitted here". (PS, Isn't that kind-of like the IRVA conferences that do not check the claims of their quest speakers who the conference particpants pay to hear as the supposed authorities on the subject?)

It allows anonymity, which makes my checking info impossible. And since it's field-wide and I am just one person, it needs to be clear that someone being on the list doesn't mean they're my associate--for their sake as much as mine.

I can't speak for IRVA as I'm not a member.

I looked through many of them & I did not recognize any names.

She didn't recognize several of the original StarGate program members, nor several of her own students (including a fellow who's even featured on her videos). That seems unlikely. Not that the RV world is defined only by people she knows anyway of course.

I clicked on it and it bombarded me with an executed series of questions

In english that means, "the web page had a form to fill out."

where I was to insert my answers that consisted only of her choices for my answers.

Most are open fields, but some are just options. I considered making it open, but then it made it hard for people to get a listing grouped by a certain thing. I made the directory really quickly, late one night--it would have taken a lot more time to do more string search options, it was easier just to make a few fields and group. I've wanted to update it for eons. It's going to 'expand' and be loaned into the TKR Resource Center, so I will consider this constructive critique and when I do that, I'll open up the questions to an 'essay' answer instead.

Then it asks: -Have you had RV-methods training? My head twitches.... "Methods training" ?????? *(Excuse me, coughing loudly)* And who might I ask is the "RV God" who teaches that? I'm not sure if this entire site is just another creation that pollutes the RV industry

Yes, there are different psychic methodologies used in the remote viewing field besides TRV. Wishing TRV was the sole definition "of" Remote Viewing rather than one of several methodologies used "for" remote viewing won't make that happen.

For the record, the primary method was CRV, which Ingo Swann created, and Paul Smith (from the stargate program) now teaches. Now there are people who think that ONLY Ingo's official original methods count, and when I meet them, I send them to train with Paul, since he is the only person teaching that. Occasionally Bill Ray (formerly of the stargate program) teaches with Paul.

Lyn Buchanan (from the stargate program) teaches a slight variant, and I'm told that occasionally Mel Riley (formerly of the stargate program) does/has/will teach on occasion with him. Angela Thompson (not from stargate, but did used to be a research assistant at PEAR, and was trained by Smith, her former brother in law) teaches ERV and CRV, and several others teach CRV and ERV who are 'graduate students' of others (such as Lori Lambert in CRV or F.M. Bonsall of TRV). There is ERV as formerly taught by Gene 'Kinkaid' (formerly of the stargate program), and then there is CRV and ERV as both taught by Morehouse (formerly of the stargate program).

Separately from CRV, then there is TRV, which is Ed Dames (formerly of stargate)/Jonina Dourif's derivative from CRV, which according to both of them in many times/places, is really "different" from and "more advanced" than Swann's original CRV (also, "the manual is nothing more than a historical reference"), so I'll take their word on it. Then there is SRV, which is a student of Ed Dames's version of methods (Courtney Brown), and then there are the TDS methods, which are a student of THAT student's further-derivative methods (Prudence Calabrese), and then over on the islands there's the HRVG methods, which are a semi-separate lineage of methods by Glenn Wheaton.

But wait, there's more... aside from all the paint-by-number plans, there is also the psi-since-time-began sort, the nearly-no-method approach, the sort used by the initial remote viewers who founded the STAR GATE program, used in an ARV protocol which is informally taught (as a simple website rundown) by Greg Kolodziejzyk and Marty Rosenblatt, and informally taught for regular RV (as a simple book rundown) by Joseph McMoneagle (formerly of the stargate program), and then there's the altered-state version with Skip Atwater (formerly of the stargate program) over at TMI.

I could continue but you get the idea. Methods are 'how you go about' getting the data and 'how you record it' and there are a lot of people with a lot of ideas.


Info break:

Since education about RV protocol is (often deliberately) withheld from methods training, I will give some here that a few folks might learn something new:

The "RV Protocol" which qualifies psychic functioning to be called 'remote viewing' instead of just 'psychic' is a science protocol. That's why all the bragging about all the years of scientific study; that's why it had some legitimacy. It has nothing to do with methods in general, although some people have a method they use within it. It is based on three primary points:

(1) The session is deliberate, on a specific target, not 'spontaneous' psi;
(2) the viewer and anybody else in communication with or physically present with the viewer is fully blind to the target; and
(3) There is hard feedback on the target which can be compared to the data session.

Those are the three primary points of a proper RV protocol (notice that protocol word is in the singular). They helped make RV "legitimate" because they helped prevent fraud, accident, subtle physiological transfer of info (as Swann talks about, science has actually documented 17 physiological senses, not just 5), and more.

One way of putting all this in a nutshell is to say: Methods are what help walk you through getting psi data, becoming aware of what is most likely imagination and analysis, and recording that data in a certain manner. By contrast, the RV protocol is what helps ensure you are not getting data that is for certain not psi because it is coming from some source other than you. You will still have to deal with what's in your head, but a good RV protocol makes sure that nothing else outside that is interfering.

Now there are a myriad of psychic methodologies that can be used. These include CRV, ERV, TRV, SRV, TDS, HRVG, Silva, and others. These methods are sometimes called "protocols" by some people (note the term is plural), which is very confusing to the public since it overlaps in their minds with the term 'RV Protocol' used by science. The original Remote Viewing Protocol (since 1972 or so) is a science term, meaning a set of conditions that whatever method you are using must operate within.


So, many people are already so confused about "what Remote Viewing is" and now people have created their own methods !

Any deviation whatever from what Swann taught, which both she and Dames have claimed they've done, means they've created their own methods to some degree, just as other people have created other methods to some degree.

After that PJ asks "if you have interests in a multitude of other new age "psychic" garbling. She provides a drop down menu where one may easily choose from every possible psychic new age term that anybody and their cousin has made up in the past 20 years.

It helps to know that the directory exists to help people find those with shared interests. I suppose I could have asked about interests in sports or politics, but it seemed a little more logical given the subject matter to ask about interests in other kinds of psi functioning. Perhaps I will expand that in the new version.

promoting the idea of existing "RV Methods" is as nonsensical as saying how many ways can you speak English?

Well you can speak British English, American English, Australian English, British-Indian English -- but never mind that.

Essentially PJ arrived on the Internet a few years ago with a little bit of Lyn Buchanan's "RV method"

Sigh. She loves to rewrite my history. Should I waste time defending myself? How come some fellow mentions a website that is not even mine and it turned into a long 'ol public rant insulting me personally?

I 'arrived' on the internet with a web site about RV in late 1995, which hardly qualifies as 'a few years ago' given that dates back to just after it was declassified--it couldn't be much sooner. That's about eight years of serious study now. Given it wasn't declassified until then, few people in the public sector can claim any more time invested.

For the record of experience across the board, I have about a dozen years of management and executive experience and have worked for myself since then. I am currently Technical Director for a corporation that publishes educational materials on the internet; I also have a variety of friends I handle websites for--most for free, just to help them out, as none of them are very demanding and most are in the RV field (that's the connect of my work to RV).

For years I studied both on my own and then formally in things like Hypnosis, Neuro Linguistic Programming, Transcendental Meditation, Hands-on Healing (similar to Reiki but not that brand) and more. Once RV was open to the public I first emailed with Buchanan about it daily for six months then trained with Lyn Buchanan (CRV), then with Paul Smith (CRV), then with three other people I can't formally name (as the training was informal and they asked me not to) one in ERV, and then with graduate students of both TRV and SRV (in 'overview' format). I've also spent years reading science and talking with scientists and other things for a broader education about the subject.

That covers it all I guess.

PJ's sites have helped to create a new populous of RV dilettantes

The only site I have that deals with hands-on RV is the RV Galleries. The galleries support psychic functioning within an RV protocol, meaning targets done doubleblind with feedback, in any method someone chooses. From typical RV (CRV, TRV, etc.) to typical psi. The inference here is really that "everybody not using TRV is a dilettante."

That jump represents a gap in your this directory designers knowledge base.

It represents PJ being sleep deprived while programming for free a little website utility that anybody in the field could use, because it was asked for earlier that day, and thinking that for the moment eight total categories for 'skill' would do. Perhaps when I expand this for the galleries I will make it larger. (The joke about being a God was sleep-deprived humor. When I redo this I will take all attempts at lightheartedness out.) A quick&dirty convenient utility, free for everyone, is being attacked as if it claimed encyclopedic official presentation of RV. Why?

I guess it's even worse, really. For years I've had this little utility online free that lets people generate random alphanum target numbers. But it does not say anywhere that people should only use a 4x4 digit target number. It lets people generate the length they want. They might even generate task numbers two digits too long. What have I done.

I have to wonder who PJ confers with to decide "what the RV levels are?"

I didn't decide what 'the' levels were as there ARE NO official levels of remote viewer unless each trainer decides to make up their own. Swann didn't have any officially defined levels. It was just my generic way of offering a half dozen loose categories for some sorting/grouping, sheesh.

Here's an analogy of the progression of this agenda (or "digression" depending upon your perceptual acuity) Elementary Eglish gets degraded to Slang then develops Ebonics; which then creates a network of rappers

Essentially the gripe is that anything else is a 'dialect' of the original but since her own method is a 'dialect' of CRV then what the heck is the complaint again?

So, let me guess who made up the RV levels of proficiency here. PJ Ganier, PJ Ganier and several of her close "fairly advanced" RV friends whose real skill is constructing websites like PJ herself.

Out of many hundreds of people I've known in RV over 8 years, I know of four who make websites and three not well. How on earth does this relate.

I am afraid that PJ's compulsion to create so many online clubs, groups & organizations

I only have one active club/etc. and that is TKR.

appears to be only an ambitious cyber person who is enamored with " the idea of Remote Viewing" rather then bothering to learn to become a proficient Remote Viewer herself.

She clearly knows nothing of what I do concerning remote viewing.

Pj has become "The Goddess of the RV Rap & Spin Zone" !

Funny. Now, I am determined to use that somewhere. ;-)

The pollution is driving the authentics into hiding. Okay, that's all for now. Pele (in a lava tube)!

Gee. It must be difficult being the sole source of authority in the world. Sigh.

PJ

 

[end]

You can send email to PJ Gaenir about this editorial.

Remote Viewing: Debunking Menu



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The original, in case it should 'vanish' from online:

From: "Pele"
Date: Tue Aug 3, 2004 5:34 am
Subject: Another: Frustrated Viewer from PJ Ganier & Friends

Nathan,

It's no wonder you are frustrated.!

The website you have been using of RV targets is an abomination and can only serve to propel a "RV wanna-be" into a downward spiral of disappointments.

The targets are not cued (which means they are not given titles of the events) and they are given 10 digits (which is very wrong.) I looked at quite a few targets there today after reading your msg. and I was appalled! There are images (we can't tell if they were actual photographs or not) and the images portrayed on each one was a variation on scenes of extreme mundanity. and triviality. Like a picture of a stained glass window or A picture of a girl in a dance class, etc. etc.

In addition to her "FireDocs" site, I stumbled upon another one of PJ's internet endeavors the other day. It is called:

"The Remote Viewer Fields Free database directory"

It purports to give remote viewers the opportunity to contact one another and advertise their services for the public sector. In my opinion, without a standardized qualification, these claims only perpetuate the existing pollution & further confuse The idea of "what Remote Viewing is" for the public as it spins stories about notions of myths and RV Technology ignorance She lists it as: "A free database directory for Remote Viewers and others in the Remote Viewing Field"

But there's a caveat (in small print below) that says: "Being liste here does NOT imply any association with this website or owner. Warning: We do not monitor veracity of any info submitted here".

(PS, Isn't that kind-of like the IRVA conferences that do not check the claims of their quest speakers who the conference particpants pay to hear as the supposed authorities on the subject?) ----------

PJ had 110 so called "Viewers" listed in her Directory last time I looked. I looked through many of them & I did not recognize any names. So I proceeded to look around and I found an "Ad your listing" link

I clicked on it and it bombarded me with an executed series of questions where I was to insert my answers that consisted only of her choices for my answers.

The questions started out like this (below).

First it asks : Are you a remote viewer?
Psi or RV practices since ____________
How often do you view?

Then it asks for your:-Assumed level of psi skill ?

The Choices of answers are these:
1.. Raw beginner & Don't ask 2. Recent Beginner & learning fast 3. Beginner & ready for Intermediate 4.Somewhere around intermediate 5.Coming out of intermediate to advanced 6. Fairly Advanced 7. I am God. Who are you? 8. N/A

Then it asks:

-Have you had RV-methods training?

My head twitches....

"Methods training" ?????? *(Excuse me, coughing loudly)* And who might I ask is the "RV God" who teaches that? I'm not sure if this entire site is just another creation that pollutes the RV industry rather then furthering it. So, many people are already so confused about "what Remote Viewing is" and now people have created their own methods !

For example there are quite a few of these kinds of "RVers" who list their training as: "Yes but informally or self-taught or psi-work"

Then of course we have categories of weekly & daily viewers with no training but who cite the many various "precog" type experiences they've had & that somehow qualifies them as RVers. (They don't understand what Remote Viewing is).

After that PJ asks "if you have interests in a multitude of other new age "psychic" garbling. She provides a drop down menu where one may easily choose from every possible psychic new age term that anybody and their cousin has made up in the past 20 years.

I especially liked this one:

"Active Meditation (shamanic, inner guide, Jungian)"

(I wondered, does Carl Jung actually come and channel though them?)

Yes, I'm on PJ's case for this because first of all, promoting the idea of existing "RV Methods" is as nonsensical as saying how many ways can you speak English?

Eloquently method
Masterfully method
Professionally method
Scholastically method
Sophomorically method
Elementary method
Adequately method
Slang method
Pidgin method
'Can just get to the bathroom' method (this one includes a toilet alien who continues to mentor)

or
The Ebonics Method

Essentially PJ arrived on the Internet a few years ago with a little bit of Lyn Buchanan's "RV method" (that is unlike anybody else's who was a member in the DIA military RV unit).

PJ's sites have helped to create a new populous of RV dilettantes who flit from place to place seeking new psychic skills & answers from one another and then setting up shops and acting like they know something to present to each other, the unexposed public & the naive PSI seeker. The creation of the equivalent of English Ebonics.

The proof of what I say is clearly demonstrated by looking at the choices of RV proficiency levels that she has listed on this internet RV Directory data base form. It asks the self proclaimed RVer to fill out to be in this International RV directory.

The four highest levels you list are:

A: Coming out of Intermediate to advanced
B: fairly advanced
C: I am God. Who are you?
D: N/A

Now, please note, the jump from fairly advanced to "I am God" infers that a person does not know the difference between a mediocre RVer and an advanced one. That jump represents a gap in your this directory designers knowledge base. PJ feverishly promote her RV knowledge base and attempts to hold it out as a standard which in turn appears to legitimize dilettantism by insinuating that if there is an "advanced RVer" they must posses a tremendous Ego (and therefore shouldn't be believed) or if they truly are an advanced RVer, then they must possess some "Supernatural God Like" qualities.

I have to wonder who PJ confers with to decide "what the RV levels are?"

Because, after all, if you do better then "Fairly Advanced" than you are an Ego Maniac or God Himself - Certainly not a person that a mere mediocrity could learn from!

Here's an analogy of the progression of this agenda (or "digression" depending upon your perceptual acuity)

Elementary Eglish gets degraded to Slang then develops Ebonics; which then creates a network of rappers who create their own styles such as: hip hop,gansta rap, studio gansta rap, commercial rap, bambaataa rap. grunge rap, etc. etc. Then the executives eye a media opportunity & for the sake of mass appeal (and more $) they try to give it a generic name by calling all of it "R & B" (short for Rhythm & Blues). But calling rap "Rhythm & Blues" would indicate that the rap aberration somehow stems from our earlier R & B classics and frankly, I don't see Louis Armstrong, Harry Bellefonte or Nat King Cole keeping company with the likes of "Snoop Doggy Dog" Cypress Hill, or Dr Dre. In fact, what I see is the whole rap trend has disgusted and embarrassed the upstanding, educated, talented and conscientious members of their own community and in doing so they have alienated "the originals" completely.

So, let me guess who made up the RV levels of proficiency here. PJ Ganier, PJ Ganier and several of her close "fairly advanced" RV friends whose real skill is constructing websites like PJ herself.

Pj has become "The Goddess of the RV Rap & Spin Zone" ! A place where seekers run round in circles trying to get something somewhere until they become overwhelmed, forlorn or exhausted and give up entirely or even worse, settle for mediocre PSI gimmicks and join the ranks of "hoping someday it all works better." Then of course you have your other sort, who have nothing to begin with & nothing to invest so they make up their own "method" and consciously scam people for money or ego strokes giving away or selling for cheap their "fairly advanced" RV Lessons.

Well, I have expressed my diatrible burst of suspressed distasteful observations

I am afraid hat PJ's compulsion to create so many online clubs, groups & organizations appears to be only an ambitious cyber person who is enamored with " the idea of Remote Viewing" rather then bothering to learn to become a proficient Remote Viewer herself. All of this pollution only serves to widen the gap in the RV community. The amateur quality of these many inaccurate RV claims only embarrasses and distance the real RV practitioners who realize and live the value of this very profound life changing technology.

The pollution is driving the authentics into hiding.

Okay, that's all for now.

Pele
(in a lava tube)!

_____________________________________________________________________
*The Myth, The Fad and The Frauds - Exposing the truth about "Remote Viewing*
A Matrix Remote Viewers Article by Joni Dourif, PSI TECH President
http://www.tvnews.com/tmn/120701/truthabouttrv/index.html