REMOTE VIEWING

[PSI] Psychic Discussion Group Archives

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Last Updated: 04Nov2002
[Psi] Psychic Discussions Group Archives
Unmoderated. List Owner PJ Gaenir.
This list was closed July 4, 1998

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Begin Archive #001 January 1998

From: "PJ Gaenir"
Date sent: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 10:31:03 +0000
Subject: [Psi] Welcome Everyone!

Howdy Folks,

This officially begins the [Psi] Discussion Group.
This group is an offshoot of the [VWR] Discussion Group.
Both groups have registration-approval set for them.
The VWR list is a sole topic focus, and moderated.
The Psi list is a field of topics, and is not moderated.
New members receive an email with relevent info.

Please maintain a polite, adult discussion.
Please don't be flaming or snotty. Be nice!
Please limit quoting of old posts to the minimum.
Please do not send messages that are not about Psi.
(This includes politics, evangelism, or humor.)
(This includes "conspiracy" and "UFOlogy Nuts&Bolts.")
Please do not send "thank you's" and "me-too's" to the list.
Please limit your signature to a few lines... no billboards.

The [Psi] list is privately owned and operated by PJ Gaenir.
List owner reserves the right to revoke registration for anyone
violating common discussion rules such as the above.
List owner reserves the right to modify rules or list-type.
Members may petition other member inclusion/exclusion or basic
rules by emailing the list owner directly.
First copyright goes to authors of individual posts;
a concurrent and equal copyright goes to the list owner.
List owner reserves the right to create public archives of list
messages selectively or in total.

Any known or unknown phenomena related to the perception, transfer or
projection of information normally relegated to the mind, soul or
consciousness is open for discussion on this list.

That covers the official stuff.

Glad I could finally get this thing started!

I haven't made a point of saying *I* wanted this list, but I have.
I've been sad that not enough people signed up. As it turns out,
once I announced I was starting it anyway, I got enough
registrations! Including me, we're beginning with 37 members.

Have fun everyone!!

PJ

PJ Gaenir
[Psi] List Owner


From: "Darryl Smith"
Subject: [Psi] PSI Welcome to All! We are on the dawn of a new era!
Date sent: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 23:50:50 -0800

A wish a warm welcome to the 37 people who are open enough to discuss the
ideas and emerging collective sense known as PSI.

I have been studying the excellant Rv list for nearly a year now, my own
Rving is coming along well and I know it's a long hard process, but I'm
getting there.

Recently I wrote some thought about what I feel may be the future
applications of Psi and am hoping you can share some ideas along these
lines

The existance of a latent human talent know as P.K or psychokinesis. This
is the ability to influence objects with the power of the human mind.The
existance of this talent has been debated over for centuries with many
alleged examples but no solid evidence, until recently.

Since 1979 The Princetown Engineering Anomalies Research Lab (PEAR) has
been gathering data that basicially shows that the humans can and do affect
objects and their surroundings with their thoughts and their minds.
This has been named Macro P.K.

In The 1970's there was an upsurge in interest by the U.S Intelligence
agencies in the use of PSI skills for intelligence gathering. Born out of
this research is the technique called Remote viewing. This is the ability
to gather information about any assigned target which is located anywhere
in time and space.

Remote viewing has been proved it has a wealth of data and has been used
with great success for the last twenty years.

Quantum physics has opened up new pathways into reality. There are things
happening on a quantum level that at this time in mans existance seem like
magic. Theory now shows that it is possible that man creates the quantum
world as he is looking at it. For example Physacist have found compelling
evidence that the only time electrons maifest as particles is when we are
looking at them. At all other times they behave as waves. This is as
strange as owning a bowling ball that traces a single line down the lane
while you are watching it, but if you look away it moves in a wave pattern.

We also know that some of this quantum material exist in more than one
place at the same time, and that these particles move forward and backwards
in time.

We have heard rumors of a possible Intelligence weapon called Remote
Influencing, and If these are true then my idea of the future PSI uses may
be begining.

I feel the next step is a repeatable technology which would be a hybrid of
Remote viewing Quantum Theory and P.K.

This is like the form of Remote Influencing but on a quantum level. By
hybriding quantumn theory, P.K and Remote viewing into a form of PSI that
would concentrate on the level of quantum material to influence electronics
and computers (as data flow inside computers is made by electrons), we
could influence the internal systems of the human body. This type of P.K
would be very similar to Macro P.K. How great a weapon that works over any
distance can hit any target, machine or man. It should be possible to
create a quantum virus made of electrons or other quanum material and
insert it within the internal systems of a computer system, or worse within
the human mind. On a positive side it should be possible to create a
quantum form that would search the human body for pre programmed cells or
illnesses.

Your comments would be appreciated.

All the best...

Darryl


Date sent: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 13:50:40 +1100 (EST)
From: Simon Lindsay Hamm
Subject: Re: [Psi] PSI Welcome to All! We are on the dawn of a new era!

Daryl,

I am a 2nd year Applied Physics student, I have basic OOBE, RVing
and Spoonbending abilities. I very much aggree with your statements. I
know that PEAR has a lot of research on PK and influencing computers, but
for the moment it's 'unavailibale' to anyone.

HAMMER :)


Date sent: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 08:22:23 -0800
From: Angela Thompson Smith
Subject: [Psi] Re: PEAR and Remote Influencing

Simon Lindsay Hamm wrote:

>I very much aggree with your statements. I
> know that PEAR has a lot of research on PK and influencing computers, but
> for the moment it's 'unavailibale' to anyone.

Hi Simon, have to disagree with you on this one. Everything that PEAR
researches is eventually reported either in peer-reviewed journals
such as the Foundation of Physics or the Journal of Scientific
Exploration, or is published as a technical report. PEAR has a wealth of
materials available for the asking. I believe they charge a small fee for
each technical report they send but some of them are quite bulky. They
have also written a book, Margins of Reality. You can see a review on my
web site in the Library at: [website no longer avail - pj]

You can also access the PEAR web site where you can order their reprints
and they will send them to you. I don't know if they are dowloadable yet.
You can also hear Bob Jahn and Brenda Dunne talking at the Society for
Scientific Exploration Annual Conference, which is going to be held in
Charlottesville, VA this year in May. They always talk about the new and
wonderful things they are doing at the lab. I worked at PEAR from 1987
through 1992, as a research assistant, and learned much about PK and PRP,
to supplement my own abilities. I have been working since then with PEAR
to replicate some of their REG results for my Ph.D. Dissertation. This
should be finished this year and I will be retaining their portable REG
device to carry out some further studies. PEAR has a program that takes
data from a random number generator (REG). Apparently, when emotionally
significant events occur (such as the OJ trial verdict)the REG shows a
deviation from chance. I plan to run the REG during ERV sessions to try
and record spontaneous successes and other emotional events. I suppose
this is a kind of remote influencing - but person to machine, rather than
person to person. Simon, there is a wealth of information out there, if
you know where to look. Sorry this is so long, PJ, but I wanted to give
Simon and others some valid information.

Kind regards
Angela Thompson Smith
The Inner Vision Institute
Las Vegas, NV


From: "PJ Gaenir"
Date sent: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 10:29:55 +0000
Subject: Re: [Psi] Re: PEAR and Remote Influencing

Hi Angela,

>Sorry this is so long, PJ, but I wanted to give Simon and others
>some valid information.

I had faith that you'd come through in response to that one. :-)
Length is no issue in an email group. Sheesh, if it were I'd have
been banned long ago!

PJ


Date sent: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 04:43:26 -0600
From: Alan Hughes
Subject: Re: [Psi] PSI Welcome to All! We are on the dawn of a new era!

Simon Lindsay Hamm said
> I know that PEAR has a lot of research on PK and influencing computers, but
>for the moment it's 'unavailibale' to anyone.

I would like to make a general comment, NOT aimed at anyone in particular -

It is often difficult to find out exactly what is being done in
parapsychology at the moment, because of an atmosphere of secrecy and "if
only you knew what I know."

There could be many reasons for this, but I am sure that it hampers the
development of this field of research. I hope this new list can do
something make the subject more open, with free exchange of information and
ideas.

Alan Hughes:


Date sent: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 09:23:06 +1100 (EST)
From: Simon Lindsay Hamm
Subject: Re: [Psi] Re: PEAR and Remote Influencing

PJ and Angela,

Thanks for the information on PEAR. I actually know Brenda Dunne,
so I think I will have to talk to her about some of her work.

Hey does anyone know of a Remote Viewing type TM Sidhi? I maybe
taking the TM Sidhi course later this year.

HAMMER :)


From: "PJ Gaenir"
Date sent: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 14:57:34 +0000
Subject: Re: [Psi] PEAR and Remote Influencing

Hi Simon,

>>Hey does anyone know of a Remote Viewing type TM Sidhi? I maybe
>>taking the TM Sidhi course later this year.

The Sidhi course is multiple, so to speak; numerous things are
included in it, not just a singular focus like the initial TM
training. I have not yet encountered any person from TM with skill
anywhere near that of someone trained and experienced in remote
viewing, however, a good practice of TM most certainly can help
"center" you.

It doesn't, alas, "ground" you, as Courtney Brown so well
demonstrates. :-)

PJ


Date sent: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 13:37:01 -0800 (PST)
From: Joan Branch
Subject: Re: [Psi] PEAR and Remote Influencing

>however, a good practice of TM most certainly can help
>"center" you.
>It doesn't, alas, "ground" you, as Courtney Brown so well
>demonstrates. :-)

A(wo)men!;)

Joan


Date sent: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 19:49:36 +0000
From: MaryD
Subject: [Psi] Hey has anyone tried......

Hi all,

The best way to improve an individuals abilities, is to be
placed amongst those, who already have those abilities. In sports, your
level of game improves. In language, your fluency improves. In psychic
work, your level and fluency improves. I have seen this, time and time again.

Similarly, a group of like minded people, raise the level of the whole.
IMO, we are part of a living, growing consciousness. Rem, we are all
connected to each other and everything else anyway. In this list, we can
openly share and explore our ideas from our various persectives on PSI matters such as RV,
(which is itself living and growing). And the very process of learning and
sharing, will inevitably increase our collective abilities.

For example, I would be very interested to hear from other members on this
list, their actual technique/methodology for remote viewing.
I think it would be great if one day someone says, Hey, has anyone tried so
and so method.... and then we all have a go, as long as we stay within the
protocols!!!

We could do it with any psi related subject.
We would be creating a multi stranded feedback loop.
We would learn and grow as a group, quicker than as
individuals, and then like the ripples on a pond.....we _all_ grow.

Regards, MaryD


From: "John Krimes"
Subject: Re: [Psi] Hey has anyone tried......
Date sent: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 03:59:03 -0500

Hi Mary and all

I'm hoping to learn about different techniques also, so I guess I'll start
with my own. I haven't been formally trained, I just making up techniques
as I'm being influenced by books and others.

I've first found RV then OBE. I tried RV from the beta state with nearly
no success, so I started researching OBE and came across the transcendence
hemi-sync tape. I learned to achieve the hynagogic state through listening
to the transcendence tape and meditating. I know I'm in hypnagogy when I
feel wieghtless or hear something. At that point I pose the target cue and
record the impressions into memory until I break off the meditation and
document what happened. I'm still in the early stages with this, but I
figure any communication with the subconscious will eventually become
habit. The military ERV was done in the hypnagogic state.

I may be wrong, but I feel that learning OBE first may be benificial to
learning other psi abilities.

All the same rules that are involved in CRV still apply in the technique I
use. Such as AOL's, telepathic overlay, ect. I've found it to be easier
to pick up on the holistic information.

If anyone wants in depth details on my hypnagogy induction process, please
ask.

I would also appreciate anyone else who wants to share there techniques.

John


Date sent: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 10:35:58 GMT
From: Brian Oldham
Subject: Re: [Psi] Hey has anyone tried......

At 07:49 PM 1/15/98 +0000, MaryD wrote:
>The best way to improve an individuals abilities, is to be
>placed amongst those, who already have those abilities. In sports, your
>level of game improves. In language, your fluency improves. In psychic
>work, your level and fluency improves. I have seen this, time and time again.

Really? Could you give an instance where you have seen a positive
improvement in psi ability as a direct result of practice? I have trouble with
this you see, because everything else I read and see from many years of
watching the activity in parapsychology indicate the opposite - a decline
in ability.

I realise the "Decline Effect" is fairly short term and that you are probably
talking longer term but frankly I still don't believe that psychic ability
can be developed. Can any parapsychologist tell me differently?

Brian


Date sent: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 15:07:21 +0000
From: MaryD
Subject: Re: [Psi] Hey has anyone tried......

At 10:35 16/01/98 GMT, you wrote:
>Really? Could you give an instance where you have seen a positive
>improvement in psi ability as a direct result of practice?

Where in the above did I say_practice_.

IMO, Practice strengthens and focuses, the connection that is already
there. Otherwise, what would be the point in practising RV for instance.
Practice creates improvement through experience of the usage. Also, in
psychic work, as in many other areas, no amount of practice is going to do
anything, if your heart and soul isn't in it. You must have the intention
to do.... to be... and an absolute knowing its right for you.

Why am I here in this group, and on the planet, come to that? Primarily to
learn and maybe pass on a little knowledge to others.

When we join a group with psychic abilities greater or different than our
own, we gain (and pass on) information at many different levels. We widen
the apperture of information. We seek , knowingly and unknowingly to
learn, and at the same time we focus more. We consciously (and
unconsciously) look more, listen more, absorb more.

That is, we use Extra .... Sensory ..... Perception.

We intentionally open the doors of perception. And once the doors are
opened, the perceptions flow both ways. Outside in. And from inside out.
Conscious to subconscious, subconscious to conscious. And if we are
suffering some kind of block, those with greater or different abilities,
seem to know subconsciously, what _we_ need to know, and say what we need
to hear, at exactly the moment we need it, to kick the door in for us.

Also, I think the subconscious recognises it's with kindred spirits<g>,
relaxes a little, and allows other doors to swing open on their own.

Another aspect of group learning, is telpathic overlay. But, I'll leave
that to somebody else.

Heck, I've learned, even by writing this. Regards, MaryD.


Date sent: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 16:17:44 -0800 (PST)
From: Joan Branch
Subject: Re: [Psi] Hey has anyone tried......

>That is, we use Extra .... Sensory ..... Perception.

But I call it EXTENDED sensory perception because we all have sensory
perception.

Joan


From: "PJ Gaenir"
Date sent: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 10:04:28 +0000
Subject: Re: [Psi] Hey has anyone tried......

Hi Brian,

>>I have trouble with this you see, because everything else I read
>>and see from many years of watching the activity in parapsychology
>>indicate the opposite - a decline in ability. I realise the
>>"Decline Effect" is fairly short term and that you are probably
>>talking longer term but frankly I still don't believe that psychic
>>ability can be developed. Can any parapsychologist tell me
>>differently?

This is a topic I'd like to address -- actually a few topics -- but
like all topics in this genre, there are some real semantics issues.
So I need to define a few different things before I go romping about
the countryside flinging words around. :-)

Technically a parapsychologist is a PhD level individual
scientifically studying some form of psi. There are very few of
those currently on this list. Most of the individuals on this list
are psychics -- or in the words of parapsychologists, "subjects."
Just so you know; this provides a different perspective, a different
way of explaining oneself, and a different basis on which to judge
data, than most parapsychologists have. Parapsychologists will give
you answers based on test data; psychics will give you answers based
on how they feel / in their experience.

Second, in regards to psychic ability, there are actually three
different things (in my personal definition anyway) that I categorize
as part of this, and which most people do not differentiate between.

In the first, we have raw psychic ability -- this is (one assumes)
the ability to acquire the information in the first place -- at ANY
level (even those levels which register subconsciously and
demonstrate themselves on various biofeedback equipment). For
simplicity I'll call this "Psi Reception," but this is what most
parapsychologists would just refer to as "Psi ability," I think.

Then, we have the awareness of the individual -- this is whether or
not, and to what *degree*, the individual is aware of data that they
receive via the above. Some people for example are aware of
intuition and act on it, while others register knowing the data
clearly via biofeedback but are consciously unaware of it. This
highlights the likelihood that acquiring psi information and being
aware of psi information are two different things. This is a
cognitive process of course but a rather deep-rooted one. I'll call
this "Psi Awareness" just to differentiate.

(None of these terms are official. I'm simply trying to define them
as _I_ mean them, so we can have a conversation without confusion.)

Lastly, we have the translation and communication abilities of the
individual. This relates to the variance in form and the measurable
degree of accuracy that the data ends up with when put on paper or
in words. Two individuals may perceive the same general thing
'conceptually' or in the sensory-manner many psychics do, and yet,
what they record may be quite different. I'll call this "Psi
Communication" to be clear.

Whew! Now that THAT's over with.............

About the "decline effect." In my reading on this subject and
talking with people whose psi ability has been constantly measured
(scientifically) for many years, this is my off-the-cuff response:

First, the most -severe- "decline effects" in psi (which are
legendary) related to the bulk of popular psi work some time ago such
as "card guessing" and the like. This was enough to put any
parapsychologist in tears; subjects who initially had effect sizes
phenomenally outside chance were eventually reduced to about zero
effect size (chance). There is a good paper on this written by Dr.
Charles T. Tart, called, "Card Guessing Tests: Learning Paradigm or
Extinction Paradigm?" which goes into some excellent reasons why this
was likely happening. It had to do with basic learning theory and
feedback, as opposed to being some indication about psi itself.
Some of his suggestions, when implemented, did seem to help,
particularly the issues with feedback. Though of course most
clairvoyance/telepathic type psi is now measured via remote viewing /
etc. (Which does use feedback). You can find the paper on his home
page at http://www.paradigm-sys.com/cttart/

The decline effect in remote viewing is also clearly measured, though
not as extreme. And this is something where context needs to be
considered. First, decline in this case initially refers to decline
from the first sets of testing the person has done -- where the
"first time effect" is often in play. This is relevent in lab
studies but in the case of psychics who have been working in that
arena for years, they are long past that personal stage.

Second, the decline effect does tend to recoup at least the majority
of its losses after some time. This is likely related to psychology,
not psi (as most things are in this category). People's initial
ability scares them, and their ability suddenly plummets; then over
time they get more used to the idea and gradually accept things more
and their ability slowly but gradually rises again, hopefully to at
least fairly near where it was initially (often not quite to that
level, but considerably better than they were doing shortly AFTER
that 'first time effect').

Now data may exist for this, and I just don't know about it, but I
have heard of no data from the current commonly tested types of
psi -- biofeedback-measured precog, RNG-PK, Remote Viewing (in all
temporal forms) etc., that indicates that one's ability declines with
time. There is data pointing out the 'first time effect,' usually
a fairly sudden drop (decline), and the recoup of measured effect
sizes (even in the best Viewers), but that is not really the same as
saying for example that however good one is at any given point, they
are going to get worse. :-) My, that would be pretty depressing,
wouldn't it...

In regards to psychic ability being developed, this is where it
becomes necessary to point out what seem (to me) to be the components
which when connected, become what we eventually MEASURE as psychic
ability. Psi in the lab is like that old joke about IQ tests: that
it isn't that they measure intelligence so much as "the ability
one has to do well on an IQ test." There are many factors related to
doing well in a given setting, and no test can account for every
variable display of that skill -- or for persons whose strength lies
in different areas, or who knows and even responds to data but does
not communicate it well -- etc.

Psi Reception (in my above terms) is -- a wild guess on my part here
-- probably genetically determined. I personally doubt this is going
to vary too much. It is not impossible that humans have the ability
to affect their own genetics, or that certain ... unusual experiences
may do so (I won't get into that), but as far as the standard human
goes, I would say that we are probably born with what we've got and
it probably doesn't change.

At this point, the measurement of psi reception is still in its
infancy. We can measure via biofeedback (certain kinds of
neural measurements as well as the standard BF methods) things like
binary choices or emotional responses, but we have no way to measure
whether or not one perceives a building vs. a lake vs. an animal
vs..... whatever, in a remote viewing study. So, our measurement of
it is still new, and is still very limited, and it is difficult to
make any grand determinations based on this.

I believe Dr. Dean Radin at the Consciousness Research Labs
specializes in BF-measured psi and micro-PK effects, so after some
time, he might be able to provide some data on individuals and their
performance over time. You can find his home page at
http://www.psiresearch.org/

Psi Awareness (in my above terms) is a more interesting story. It
does seem likely that psi awareness is greatly affected by one's
experiences in life. Combat soldiers often demonstrate psi (you can
usually find the ones who do -- they were the ones who repeatedly
survived when they shouldn't have or nobody else did). Dissociative
individuals (particularly abused teens and adults) often display psi.
(I don't include chidren in this discussion, only because children
display psi anyway as a natural quality, and it would be difficult to
differentiate between that and what awareness may be developed as a
result of dissociation.) In short, psi awareness seems to be a
"survival skill."

It's possible (I'm theorizing) that one's interpretation of imminent
threat to their life or health may affect their psi awareness.
(There is a whole interesting side-discussion on aliens/ doom/
paranoia/ psi that I won't get into here.) And so it is possible
that psi awareness could or can be increased by events and situations
in one's life.

There is also an aspect of psi awareness that can be developed
through the use of various meditations, etc., by which I include
everything that might work, but particularly various derivations on
yoga. (Nearly all major meditation styles are derivations of yoga
practices, so that's easy.) Since psi reception does indicate that
the person HAS the knowledge, and that their body responds to it,
then any techniques designed to (a) increase awareness of one's
"self" in whatever regard, and/or (b) decrease one's attention to or
focus on "noise" (mental or physical) could potentially improve one's
awareness of psi information they have received.

Psi Communication (in my above terms) is where most of the various
forms of "training" in psi abilities comes in. Remote Viewing is the
current fad, and much-hyped "remote viewing methods" are sold for
hefty prices everywhere you turn. (Remote Viewing is actually a
process, not a method, but I won't bore you with that.) Silva Mind
Control was a much earlier attempt to nail down some methodologies
for psychic work. The TM Siddhis are another attempt. Ceremonial
and tantric magick in some aspects are yet other attempts. Some
forms of Yoga (there are eight major categories of Yoga I believe; I
think Raja Yoga pertains mostly to this subject) are an attempt.
And so on.

To use remote viewing methodologies as an easy example, much of the
structure is designed around the Viewer's communication of the data.
There are innumerable good reasons for every little step in the
CRV process, nearly all of which student Viewers are unaware of,
alas. Ingo Swann, who developed the first formal methods (which some
call protocols) for working within RV protocol (the set of science
controls), has tons of information on his home page, which you can
find at http://www.biomindsuperpowers.com/ (You have to do a mind
numbing amount of reading to get to it, but it's in there.)

There are many other reasons for the methodology details, but right
now let's focus on the communication aspect. Just about every person
taking remote viewing training learns a few major things: (1) They
seem to have some psi ability. (2) They chronically are faced with
realizing they'd "known" things they hadn't written down, or they'd
"assumed" things as PART of what they'd written down but didn't spell
it out, or they "analyzed" things internally which changed what they
perceived into something else by the time it got written down, etc.
etc.

They might realize that when they said, "a red car," that was an
assumption, and analysis: what they really perceived was something
red, shiny, metallic, in motion -- four pieces of data. What they
communicated was two pieces of data, one of which was invented. If
it was a red speedboat, they are now 50% wrong. Had they
communicated what they perceived in raw form, rather than what they
interpreted/translated, they would have gotten twice the accuracy
(quality) and twice the data (quantity). Add this up over a whole
session and you have a dramatic difference in profile results. Add
this up in results to an analyst who needs detail data to put things
in place and you have a dramatic difference in application
results. Or in the lab, in measured effect-size results.

This is one small example; there are many.

In the original remote viewing methodologies, another major factor in
the reasoning behind the methods was related to psi awareness. If
one really begin to FOCUS on their internal communication -- why did
they think something, why did they interpret it this way, why didn't
they say this, why are they processing that piece of data, what was
symbolic, whatever -- they eventually become much more aware of
themselves, aware of "what's going on inside their head" as my friend
puts it. A proper use of the methods will teach the student to
initially focus on the outside -- the paper, the methods -- but the
point of that is to force them, in turn, to focus on their inside
(so to speak).

So, as to whether psi reception can be taught, or improved -- I doubt
it. There is no evidence for this.

As to whether psi awareness can be taught, or improved -- probably,
but it takes a helluva lot of work, and I doubt anybody has got the
final answer on methods for this.

As to whether psi communication can be taught, or improved --
certainly, happens all the time.

That's my two cents. Well okay, so it was a whole quarter, but I
like to be complete. :-)

PJ

End Archive #001 January 1998

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