Begin Archive #002 January 1998
From: "John Krimes"
Subject: Re: [Psi] Re: PEAR and Remote Influencing
Date sent: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 11:20:29 -0500
> From: Simon Lindsay Hamm
>Hey does anyone know of a Remote Viewing type TM Sidhi? I maybe
> taking the TM Sidhi course later this year.
From my understanding, an OBE is one of the goals in TM. From the "OBE
state of mind," I believe RV can be done.
John
Date sent: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 08:43:03 -0800
From: Angela Thompson Smith
Subject: Re: [Psi] Decline Effects
Brian Oldham wrote:
> I realise the "Decline Effect" is fairly short term and that you are probably
> talking longer term but frankly I still don't believe that psychic ability
> can be
> developed. Can any parapsychologist tell me differently?
Brian, again I would direct the group to PEAR's extensive database. In
particular their Series Position Effects research, where they find
certain learning curve patterns within their databases. This effect was
first noted by psychologist Ebbinghouse (in learning word lists) in the
1880's. I am sure PEAR would be happy to send you a reprint on this.
Also, regards ERV, I know from my own students that over a five day
training, they do improve with practice. They also tell me that being
with other students helps their improvement.
Regarding group PK, research the Batcheldor studies - classic group
psi effects. I would be happy to provide references.
Kind regards
Angela Thompson Smith
The Inner Vision Institute
From: "John Krimes"
Subject: Re: [Psi] Hey has anyone tried......
Date sent: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 11:47:11 -0500
> From: Brian Oldham
> I realise the "Decline Effect" is fairly short term and that you are probably
> talking longer term but frankly I still don't believe that psychic ability
> can be
> developed. Can any parapsychologist tell me differently?
Hi all
Wow, what a statment. For what it's worth heres my two cents on the
subject. Since were talking about miracles, heres what the buddhist have
to say. Simply the changing of ones mind from a negative aspect on a
situation to a positive aspect is a miracle in itself. In other words if a
manic depressant can become a truthfully mentally healthy person with the
habitual change of attitude than a miracle has occured. IMO, if miracles
*do* occur than they *must* occur across the board, form the most minute to
the most extravagant.
John
Date sent: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 15:26:57 -0800 (PST)
From: Joan Branch
Subject: Re: [Psi] Hey has anyone tried......
Whoa! You hit a hot button on this one, Brian.
Here's a practice session to be performed daily. Do this one and prove it
to yourself.
1. Today... envision in your mind a photograph on the front page of
tomorrow's newspaper. Write down your description in as much detail as you
can see.
2. Tomorrow... the picture (or bits and scraps of it) will appear on either
the front page of your hometown newspaper OR USA Today newspaper.
3. Do this each day for tomorrow's front page picture. When you find you
are proficient in this RV task ...
4. Start writing down the Headline of the front page.
Joan
Date sent: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 17:01:42 GMT
From: Brian Oldham
Subject: Re: [Psi] Hey has anyone tried......
If I can overcome my usual state of inertia I might try this :-) But I know for a
fact that I have no psychic ability (that I have ever noticed) so I have a low
expectation of success.
But to take you guys up on the above: If my guess corresponded to any picture
in any newspaper from now to next year, as Mr Curran2106 would allow, then
who is to say the result was not due to chance? Joan is right. A time frame
must be set. But, once again, this presumes either that any abilities I might
have can be developed or that psi can be induced at will.
Brian
From: Curran2106
Date sent: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 20:27:56 EST
Subject: Re: [Psi] Hey has anyone tried......
In a message dated 98-01-16 18:27:22 EST, you write:
>1. Today... envision in your mind a photograph on the front page of
>tomorrow's newspaper. .....
NEVER EVER NEVER forget that time and space are not one of the controllables
in RV...You could be the worlds greatest viewer and view tomorrows newspaper
pictures or headlines but become very frustrated to find out your failed...on
closer examination by a million monkeys with a million typewriters ina
room...you would probably learn that the picture did appear in tomorrows
newspaper, but it was the Kuala Lampur Daily and oh by the way...it was not
acutally tomorrows newspaper but next years newspaper...damn..that time and
space thing again...drat....
Date sent: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 21:59:48 -0800 (PST)
From: Joan Branch
Subject: Re: [Psi] Hey has anyone tried......
Regarding...
>You could be the worlds greatest viewer and view tomorrows newspaper
>pictures or headlines but become very frustrated to find out your failed...on
>closer examination by a million monkeys with a million typewriters ina
>room...you would probably learn that the picture did appear in tomorrows
>newspaper, but it was the Kuala Lampur Daily and oh by the way...it was not
>acutally tomorrows newspaper but next years newspaper...damn..that time and
>space thing again...drat....
BUT THIS IS NOT SO... if you demand to see the picture on the front page of
YOUR newspaper or the USA Today, that is what you will get - with some
practice. YOU set the time frame. YOU set the location. These are not
things left to chance. No 'damn' or 'drat' about it. Try it first before
you knock it. It works.
From: "PJ Gaenir"
Date sent: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 18:04:35 +0000
Subject: Re: [Psi] Hey has anyone tried......
>>time and space are not one of the controllables in RV...
In other words, define your target clearly. Space, time and intent
coordinates. If you're general in your self-tasking, you may get
"general" results! .... as Gene pointed out.
PJ
Date sent: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 22:03:12 -0800 (PST)
From: Joan Branch
Subject: Re: [Psi] Hey has anyone tried......
Gee, I thought that's what I said! Sorry if you misunderstood me.
JB
Archivist's Note: I was just trying to make peace. :-) — PJ
From: "John Krimes"
Subject: Re: [Psi] PSI Welcome to All! We are on the dawn of a new era!
Date sent: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 11:31:26 -0500
> From: Darryl Smith
> I feel the next step is a repeatable technology which would be a hybrid of
> Remote viewing Quantum Theory and P.K.
I believe "RV influencing" could be done in an ERV state much much easier
than in a CRV state because of the interaction one has with the target(five
sensory impressions).
I'm not 100% sure, but I believe the ex-millitary RVers are reluctant to
train people in ERV for that reason. I was told after I became proficient
in CRV and befriended, one of the ex-millitary RVers that he would consider
teaching me ERV if he felt comfortable with me.
Maybe someone has some concrete evidence on ERV and PK, I'm just
speculating.
John
From: "Darryl Smith"
Subject: Re: [Psi] CRV/ERV???
Date sent: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 22:40:07 -0800
John Krimes Wrote:
> I believe "RV influencing" could be done in an ERV state much much easier
> than in a CRV state because of the interaction one has with the target(five
> sensory impressions).
John I'm sorry but I disagree with this, as we are constantly throughout
our everyday existance influencing our enviroment with our minds. As an
example some people only have to think we are getting a headache and they will.
Also at a quantum level we and everything around us is made up of floating
masses of nonlocal particles and we are constantly influencing the physical
makeup of our universes as part of a natural process.
Back to CRV, When using CRV protocols I have at my use more than the five
sense, I can access all aspects of what they SRV call Subspace, also
intuative knowledge of target site, and details that are not from the five
sense such as the effect the target has on lifeforms at a deep concious
level etc, etc.
Iwould like to try the ERV method though as the freedom of unhindered
access to the target on a virtual reality mode seem to be very appealing.
From: "PJ Gaenir"
Date sent: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 19:10:02 +0000
Subject: Re: [Psi] CRV/ERV???
Darryl?
I don't understand why so many people don't sign their names at the
bottom of emails. I wonder if that's some kind of psychology.... :-)
>>Back to CRV, When using CRV protocols I have at my use more than
>>the five sense,
I think many people unfamiliar with the psi methodologies used within
the RV protocol assume that "remote viewing" just means "viewing"
(visual). Alas, it is not very well named.
>>I would like to try the ERV method though as the freedom of
>>unhindered access to the target on a virtual reality mode seem to
>>be very appealing.
What some people call ERV is a state of mind that an extremely deep
contact with the site via CRV will probably put you in too. The
difference is that in CRV you'd be forced to lessen your site contact
ASAP so you could maintain full consciousness and write the data down
(and worse, you have to put it in categories, very left-brain),
whereas in ERV you'd have a monitor doing that part of the work for
you, and you could really "get into" the site, trusting that the
monitor would help keep you in state, out of sleep, and where you
need to be.
Somehow I get the idea that people fantasize these methods as being
some kind of magic clover, where they do this step then that one, and
some cosmic experience ala Morehouse's book falls on their head.
While regular work can certainly bring some of those, the methods
themselves are not responsible.
I think. :-)
PJ
Date sent: Fri, 16 Jan 98 18:02 GMT0
From: (Daniel Wilson)
Subject: [Psi] A milk-keeping experiment on Cix
Here's a bit of light relief for you.
Cix is a server which provides its own conferences for subscribers, not
unlike Usenet but without the spam and flaming, the contributors mostly
being from the UK. There are the usual conferences on the occult,
healing, dowsing and so on, but I got interested in the "skeptics"
conference because the fellows on there were really running an intense
thing on there being nothing in any of this stuff. It really mattered
to them that there couldn't be anything in it.
So I thought I'd liven the thing up a bit by provoking them a little. I
am in fact an extreme philosophical sceptic myself (all theory is
suspect, because how do we know we even think in reality's terms ?) and
"skepticism" is nothing to do with that - it's a kind of reverse
religion. I recounted tales of car-parking magic, clairvoyance, pyramid
transmogrification and all those little things we weirdos like to get
up to, and sure enough they got pretty worked up. I just had to promise
to have some of it tested.
As I explained, I didn't need to have it tested, did I, because I used
it every day. But then it did occur to me that I wouldn't mind being
tested on one thing I regularly do, because I was curious whether the
effect would be destroyed in testing (they were much amused at this
"advance cop-out"). This is keeping milk and some foods for abnormally
long periods in refrigerators. It's much easier to test mental
influence on white-noise generators (which I've also done, way back)
but because the Society for Psychical Research has done hundreds of
authenticated tests on that, they didn't seem at all keen on that one.
I got into milk keeping in 1981 when I was working away from home. I
had managed to remember to stop milk deliveries but suddenly realised
100 miles out with a sinking feeling that I had forgotten to stack the
ten pints of milk in my fridge in the car for rapid consumption over
the following week. I would be away three weeks. So I commanded the
milk to line up in my mind and report: yes, there were ten of them.
"Stay put until I get back," I commanded; "no point in wasting all of
you".
In fact I didn't get home for another five weeks, and all the milk was
fresh. Most of it had been one or two weeks old anyway, so some was
seven weeks old by that time. I even took two pints of it with me on
the next trip (having dowsed which was the oldest and consumed that).
Since then I have "kept" milk on a regular basis and after quite a
struggle have recently graduated to orange juice. Trials with friends'
fridges have proved the effect is transferrable, works with meat and
can be operated remotely. I unwittingly once kept a loaf of white bread
for six months (it was left in an office fridge I was keeping my own
bread in, by a departing secretary, and rather than think about every
slice I put in there I had made the fridge my "agent").
After nearly two years of pretty comic argument - there is a powerful
unconscious imperative to try and break the test off and blame me for
it - we look like actually running this test soon, with about fifteen
experimenters using ten pairs of milk samples each. I have to "spook"
half of each pair, using a list which is selected at random from
several sealed in envelopes by a person who doesn't know what the
selection is about or for. The numbers are the only connection I have
with the milk samples - I don't know where they are or who is involved
(although a few people have posted that they're interested). Tests have
already shown most milk is going off by 14 days, so at 14 days all the
pairs will be opened and sampled, and the sourer and fresher samples of
each pair reported to the convenor. The convenor then gets the
remaining unselected lists from the selector and from that deduces
which list I hold. The results are then posted.
I'll keep you informed !
Dan Wilson
From: "PJ Gaenir"
Date sent: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 19:10:02 +0000
Subject: Re: [Psi] Keeping things fresh
Hi Dan,
>>In fact I didn't get home for another five weeks, and all the milk
>>was fresh. Most of it had been one or two weeks old anyway, so some
>>was seven weeks old by that time. ...[snip]... Since then I have
>>"kept" milk on a regular basis and after quite a struggle have
>>recently graduated to orange juice.
That is SO interesting! I know people have told me about this
before. I know there was even once a question whether tests done
with fruits (for example) put within little pyramids staying fresher
longer might be due not to the pyramid but to the expectation of the
experimenters (who generally believed in it or they wouldn't have
been experimenting with it).
Why would orange juice be more difficult for you than milk?
What do you mean by "I made the fridge my agent?"
PJ
From: "PJ Gaenir"
Date sent: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 19:10:02 +0000
Subject: Re: [Psi] RV and TK
Hi John,
>>I believe "RV influencing" could be done in an ERV state much much
>>easier than in a CRV state because of the interaction one has with
>>the target(five sensory impressions).
This is actually two subjects, interestingly enough. As far as
interaction with the target goes, CRV should not make one less able
than ERV.
However, the CRV structure does not include remote influencing. That
is not to say you could not attempt it, but in that case, the minute
you moved into a methodology for doing so, you would have moved "out"
of "CRV."
>>I'm not 100% sure, but I believe the ex-millitary RVers are
>>reluctant to train people in ERV for that reason.
The ex-military RV'rs who are currently teaching are not experts on
ERV. They know what it is of course and even tried it some, but they
dominantly did CRV. Most of the ERVrs are not willing or interested
in teaching. One monitor is currently working on getting some things
documented for some potential training in that area.
ERV is not about remote influence either. The very nature of
the title infers data acquisition, not effect-creation. However ERV
in itself, as far as the Viewer is concerned, does not have the
"structure" that CRV has. You could probably commune with nature
spirits during ERV and it wouldn't matters -- your monitor would want
to know if they could give you worthwhile data is all. :-)
>>Maybe someone has some concrete evidence on ERV and PK, I'm just
>>speculating.
ESP data collection of any kind is, of course, part of psi, just like
PK is. Many people working in the science lab doing various kinds of
psi experiments use one of these methods, or whatever works for them,
or something the experimenter makes up. A lot of the PK studies are
micro-PK (such as effects on random number generators or fine
electronics), and neither CRV nor ERV structure would be all that
conducive to doing a totally different kind of thing -- regardless of
the state of mind. People doing TK trials usually don't want other
people talking to them during it, to begin with, which monitors do in
the CRV/ERV processes. Modern TK trials also often provide ongoing
feedback concerning results (such as on a display screen), something
which wouldn't be possible during CRV/ERV.
In short, PK/TK is its own skill, has its own methodologies, and
there probably isn't any need to try and fit the square peg of the RV
methods into the round hole of TK to make it work. It might be
easier to just go directly to the source -- just DO it, as they say.
Angela and the Smith brothers provided a delightful example of
fork-bending in a restaurant one night. You can practice on anything!
PJ
From: "PJ Gaenir"
Subject: Re: [Psi] CRV and ERV
Date sent: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 18:43:06
Hi Joan,
>>PLEASE define CRV and ERV.
CRV and ERV are both methods of acquiring psychic information.
They are referred to as remote viewing methods because they were
designed to be used within the remote viewing protocol (set of
controls).
CRV is _normally_ (not always) characterized by the Viewer beginning
the process in a "normal" waking state of mind, sitting at a
table with pen and paper, remaining fully conscious through the
experience, writing / sketching / modeling data during the data
collection process itself, and communicating and categorizing the
data in a very specific way the method prescribes.
CRV is done in a team, and two members of the team do the session,
the psychic and an interviewer (referred to as "the Viewer and the
Monitor" in CRV). The Monitor's primary job is to pay attention to
the Viewer, their reactions and communications, ask questions
about their data when necessary, and give either intuitive or
tasker-planned suggestions for movement or descriptions, et al.
ERV is _normally_ (not always) characterized by the Viewer beginning
the process once they are deeply relaxed or even hypnagogic,
remaining in that state as much as possible through the session,
usually speaking quietly their data to their Monitor.
ERV has the same team as CRV. In ERV however the monitor takes on
many of the left-brain functions that the Viewer has in CRV, and
takes a more participative role in the session, as the state of mind
of the Viewer means they require a good deal more prompting, etc.
Data in CRV, until intermediate stages, is usually in single word or
brief phrases (the structure itself encourages this). In general the
Viewer in CRV is required to fit their data into the structure, and
data that does not fit and requires for instance a lapse into
"paragraph form" is technically breaking structure, though most
Viewers do it anyway when necessary.
Data in ERV, due to the state of mind of the Viewer, tends to be a
little more stream-of-consciousness, and -- I am guessing here -- may
have more symbology and other factors that tend to be more pronounced
in hypnagogic states than in others.
That's enough for now, I hope that answered the question.
PJ
From: "PJ Gaenir"
Date sent: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 23:09:31 +0000
Subject: Re: [Psi] CRV and ERV
>>Thank you, PJ, but what does the C and E stand for? Conscious and
>>??? Just shows my need for that acronym list, huh? ;)
Sorry Joan -- that's why programmers shouldn't write user's manuals!
Just seems so obvious they forget that it's NOT.
The "C" in CRV _originally_ stood for coordinate remote viewing.
Which referred not just to geographic coordinates; they used any form
of "address" (such as random numbers) and called that "the
target coordinates." But the guy who made up the CRV label (Ingo
Swann) later changed it to "Controlled" Remote Viewing. He wanted to
emphasize the CONTROLS -- "the protocol." (Referring to the required
science rules (blinding, validation of data), not just to the
methods.)
Technically, if you say you are doing "RV" then if you're using the
term right, everybody knows that you had the protocol (science rules)
in place. If you say you're coing "CRV" everyone knows you are doing
Ingo Swann's methodologies. That's the difference.
The "E" in ERV stands for "extended" remote viewing. It does, as a
first requirement of being an RV method, require that one be working
within RV protocol. However, details of the method itself vary a
little depending on who you talk with about it. The term is commonly
used as a "catch-all" for all RV done in the military unit that was
NOT "CRV." A method was developed that was indeed quite specific but
that didn't really come into being until the intell RV unit had been
in operation for some years.
Hope that helps.
PJ
From: "PJ Gaenir"
Subject: Re: [Psi] CRV and ERV
Date sent: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 11:44:58
>>I'm so glad somebody asked this (I didn't dare):
>>Nope! I still don't know what the letters stand for.
It was included in my response -- but I guess I wasn't overt enough, sorry!
CRV: Controlled Remote Viewing.
ERV: Extended Remote Viewing.
PJ
[some number of messages not archived due to semi-flame content]
most from curran
From: Curran2106
Date sent: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 11:24:05 EST
Subject: Re: (Fwd) Re: [Psi] Hey has anyone tried......
In a message dated 98-01-17 02:12:18 EST, PJ wrote:
> He wasn't trying to be hard on YOU, he was just trying to point out
>that one should be very specific -- it's just the way he
>communicates, it came off as being kind of a harsh response rather
>than a commentary. I don't think he meant it that way. I give him
>slack. He's irish. ;-)
I talk to everyone that way except PJ...she won't let me get away with it...I
am six foot three...290 pounds of trained hate and destruction...grace and
dignity are not my strong suits...I buried a brother killed in the hatred of
Northern Ireland, wore a Green Beret for 13 years...jumped out of perfrectly
good airplanes around 1100 times in my career...been shot five times..been
shot down in helicopters twice..spent half my career destroying communism (and
won...I take personal credit for the collapse fo the Berlin Wall
incidentally...it was there when I got there..it was gone when I left..you
fill in the blanks...)...I have not subtelty in my bones...I gave up being
diplomatic after the third full body search at Hethrow Airport simply becuase
I was Irish..I am indeed Irish as aree some of the other old timers...we Irish
generlly believe we have a monopoly of the source of RV and other mystical
arts...We Irish fully understand why RV works but nobody will listen to
us..its magic...now move on to things that ARE definable. and just use RV for
your own good...I have done lots and lots of work with RV and lots and lots of
work with some of the great RV'rs..I know its limitations and if I jump down
your throat now and then...its to get your attention to tell you to quit
running down that path...it goes nowhere... after I tell you once I will
rarely tell you again...sometimes thesame person gets a Gene sized Flame twice
but that is not intentional...it is just age...I con't remember names as well
as used to...and before anyone cranks up some sort of conspiracy or RV danger
syndrome..it is not RV that caused the memory loss...its is 53 very hard years
on this Earth...If I offend...I am sorry you take it that way..will I mend my
ways...Check the previous sentence....53 years is a long time to set
patterns...I probably won't change...can I be schmoozed into be nicer...oh
yeh..I am a sucker for compliment....a nice word from the ladies ... but
routinely what you hear from me is what you get...
Bear in mind I am like the dial on your TV...if you don't wanto read my
comments..hit the "next" button...followed by delete...I disappear forever...
Warmest Gene..
From: Curran2106
Date sent: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 11:31:15 EST
Subject: [Psi] Gone...lucky you...
Hi Folks...
As you know I have just joined the PSI net and have managed to upset at least
three people...sorry...it's just me...stupid Mick from the wrong side of the
tracks in Belfast...anyhow...some of you will be very happy to hear that I
sadly must drop off the discussion scene for the next two or three weeks...I
have some traveling to do for the government...nothing deep dark and
conspiratorial I assure you...so those of you who believe the governmetn is
out to get you ... sorry...mostly just inspection type stuff..confernces
etc...really boring....Anyhow I will be in Asia and will not have much access
to my AOL account...for the next two weeks you can all talk about Vulcan Mind
Melds...dangers of RV...Remote Influecning...Demanding RV to work...PK...and
old military unit conspiracies without worirying about Ghengis Gene getting
involved...Have fun...I will bring you all souveniers back from Korea and
Hawaii....
Warmest Gene..
Date sent: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 17:01:40 GMT
From: Brian Oldham
Subject: Re: [Psi] Keeping things fresh
At 07:10 PM 1/16/98 +0000, you wrote:
>Why would orange juice be more difficult for you than milk?
Perhaps he "expected" orange juice to be more difficult.
No, I'm not being flippant - if expectation was a contributing factor
in the first instance then why not in the second?
Brian
From: "PJ Gaenir"
Date sent: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 11:46:56 +0000
Subject: Re: [Psi] Keeping things fresh
>Perhaps he "expected" orange juice to be more difficult.
>No, I'm not being flippant - if expectation was a contributing
>factor in the first instance then why not in the second?
Hi Brian,
Well, I think at a root level, everything probably boils down to
belief systems. Perhaps our fiddling with methodologies to do any
given thing are really a matter of fiddling with our belief systems.
PJ
End Archive #002 January 1998
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