This page is an 'archive' and hence, "ancient."
For more (current) info about Remote Viewing, see:
Science: Cognitive Sciences Laboratories http://www.lfr.org
Info: Firedocs Remote Viewing Collection http://www.firedocs.com/remoteviewing/
Discussion: The TKR Remote Viewing Forum http://www.tenthousandroads.com/wbbs/
Hands-on Viewing: TKR's RV & Dowsing Project http://www.dojopsi.com/tkr/
Social: or visit PJ's blog at http://blog.firedocs.com
Begin Archive #003 January 1998
From: "PJ Gaenir"
Date sent: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 11:46:57 +0000
Subject: Re: [Psi] Developing Psi
>but it brings a further question to mind: If a psychic impression is
>received which the percipient is aware of and which he intuitively
>"knows" is of psychic origin, what quality does that impression have
>that makes it different from ordinary sensory input?
OK, so let's assume Person XYZ got a psychic impression, AND they
were aware of it.
>what quality does that impression have that makes it different from
>ordinary sensory input?
It depends. (Love these answers eh.) I mean it's like saying, "When
someone talks to you, what voice inflection or meaning do they have?"
Well gods, who knows, it depends on a zillion factors inherent in
the situation, only some of which may be fully understood.
In my own experience -- and other people may be different -- the
chief way I tell a "psychic impression" -- I am referring to
spontaneous things here, not formal psi work -- is by the fact that
it is NOT part of the physical environment. So it's not really a
matter of differentiating.
In other words, if I'm talking to somebody via email, phone or in
person, and I get a certain... "intuitive impression" about them
(happens all the time)... I usually just assume that some part of
their quite non-psychic communication (whether choice of words, voice
frequencies, pheremones, visual cues, etc.) is responsible for
"cueing" my impression. I don't assume it's psi. It MAY be.
Times in my car that I've stopped short of an intersection for no
apparent reason, and then a car comes through the red light in the
other direction, I tell myself this is simply because peripherally I
picked up the motion, speed, my brain calculated the probabilities,
decided I didn't want that event in my reality, and so handed me the
information. That information was "intuitive" information. It might
not have been PSYCHIC though. I don't generally attribute that sort
of thing to psi, though many people I know do.
(I guess part of this explains why my approach to psi is via RV. The
protocol of RV requires as an absolute that a person control for all
potentials means of getting that data through *any other way than
psi.* If you work in RV protocol and you get correct data, it HAS to
be psychic data. There is no other choice. That's one of the main
reasons for working in protocol, is to differentiate between what is
'really' psychic and what is not. I don't say this makes RV better
than any other way to approach psi. It's just my preference because
I have that annoying left-brain tendency to analyze and doubt.)
Now, there have been times when I've gotten what you might call "psi
data" except it was (hold onto your boots) from another reality. I
watched my reality change, and then realized I was having an "overlay
vision" as I call them, it's kind of like two projectors shining on
the same screen, and when the second one starts, for a second that's
what gets your attention. After about 2 or 3 seconds I realize that
it's "not my eyes" seeing this, but some "other" visual faculty, and
I can ignore it. The other likely potential is that I was simply
hallucinating. Scientifically this is far more probable than the
alternate reality theory. :-) But personally I've had enough
experience to provide me a dramatically different belief system about
'reality' than many people have.
And there have been times when I've gotten psi data but didn't get
confirmation until later. For instance, once while driving around a
corner in my smallish town of the time, I slammed on my brakes and
darn near had a heart attack. I thought I had hit a small child.
It scared the CRUD out of me! It was so incredibly personal, my
emotions and adrenalin et al. were reacting just as if I had. I was
shaken. Fortunately nobody was behind me. An hour later I was at
the gas station just across the street. I heard people shouting and
turned around, to see that a woman had hit a small child while
beginning to go around that corner in her car. Exactly where I was
when that had hit me. I believe this was a form of psi data. It
could be chance -- anything could be chance -- but internally I felt
it was not.
I also once had a minor psi-experience while in my home, where I was
about to be in a car accident, and the vision ended abruptly -- never
knew whether or not it happened. I assumed at the time that
somewhere, maybe nearby, somebody had had that experience and I had
"tuned into them" somehow. As it turns out, the experience in every
detail happened to ME a year or two later. Had I not written it down
in my journal when I had the psi-experience, I would never have
believed, after the later experience, that I hadn't just altered my
memory or something like that. Journalising helps a lot when you
tend to have unusual impressions and experiences.
To go back to differentiating between psi and environmental cues, as
far as scientific study goes, it's been made pretty clear that
psychics have a very difficult time with where data is coming from.
After all, if psychics KNEW exactly what was psi data and from the
target, they would always be 100% accurate, right? That's just
about never the case. Psi data, imagination, subconscious effects
upon the data, and conscious effects upon the data, are all one big
One thing that marks successful psychics is that they have learned to
wade through this and recognize some degree of what is going on in
their head along these lines. Certain training (such as RV methods)
are designed to teach you to recognize the conscious effects. The
routine of giving feedback to students for years of intense practice
is partly so that on a subconscious level they can come to recognize
the other factors that influence data.
Although RV can be done in any environment depending on the Viewer,
the initially preferred one was what they called "a gray room."
Where there was no color, everything was grey, non-reflective, the
lights were gentle and dim, and so on. The point being to avoid
having any environmental stimuli, or physiological stimuli that might
be caused by environmental effects.
But, I think the bulk of your question was actually directed to
something else, that being:
>what quality does that impression have
That varies as well, of course.
There are three things that psi data has that non-psi data -- in my
experience -- has never had for me.
First, a sense of KNOWING. This is something that cannot be
explained to anybody who has not "felt" it. The sense is not the
same as when you "know all about" something intellectually. It is a
"deep" or "filling" feeling that I once termed "a kinesthetic of the
I'm truly sorry that I can't explain it. We really lack a vocabulary
to talk about things in this area. Even if I had a word to describe
it that was unique, you wouldn't really understand the word if you
didn't have a shared experience for context.
Second, a sense of what I call GEOMETRY, however, the word is not
correct and someone probably has a better one. For example, in a
dowsing experience, I could clearly feel where I was, where the thing
was, and the entire length of the physical separation, including an
awareness of distance. It is extremely.... "internally kinesthetic."
The only way to really describe it is to say that it was almost as if
the entire thing was INSIDE ME.
Stand up, close your eyes, put your arms out in front of you, and
move your hands/arms farther or closer away from each other. Try to
sense both where they are and how far your hands are from each other.
Despite that your eyes can't see, you know where they are, and how
far apart they are. I realize this is a brain function, and it is
not as complete as the feeling I'm describing, but this is the
closest I can come to giving you an example.
Lastly, there are the CONCEPTUALS. Now this can happen in dreams, so
you may be familiar with this. This is when you may SEE something,
for example, however, you "know" that it is something else, and you
"sense" that it is related to such-and-such, and you "are aware" that
before it was standing in front of you it was doing such-and-such,
and you "understand" that after this, in the future it goes off
and does such-and-such, and that sort of thing.
It is when many kinds of information you are aware of, including
concepts, context, history, future, etc. etc. all converge into one
experience. In physical life, this kind of information does not pour
into one simultaneously, just due to linear space, time, and the
biological filter (not to mention that this conceptual process can
include contradictions, and we have a hard time with that in normal
consciousness). The impact of the multitude of awareness again
creates what I call an "internal kinesthetics." That is usually
recognizeable as psi simply because "normal" experience doesn't
include that "depth and complexity."
In other words, psi often feels like a SENSE that is INSIDE one.
Because we relate to reality through our biology, and because we have
developed language based on our biology, when we use words to
describe this experience, we have to use body-words. Allegories.
Sometimes the senses, when translated by the brain, do graft onto a
sensory input area, so for instance one may hear sounds, see things,
smell or taste things, "feel" them with their fingers, etc.
Sometimes the grafting doesn't work like we expect, and we "hear" a
color or taste a sound or something like that. (Heh. You think
explaining the other stuff is difficult....)
Many times the sense simply has no good word-equivalent. This is
what I've called the knowing, and the geometry, and "internal
kinesthetics." One senses it, but there is not an easy translation
into physical senses.
>>It rather suggest that psi ability rises and falls all the time,
>>perhaps in response to all kinds of daily input.
The latest research indicates that fluctuations in the
geoelectromagnetic field, and some other big issues, may actually
influence psi. Dr. S. James P. Spottiswoode has done some stunning
analysis on decades of all kinds of psi work by researchers all over
the world, and come to some startling conclusions. Nobody is sure it
makes sense to us -- from the science we know, it shouldn't work this
way -- but it does seem to be the case. His paper has diagrams, is
fairly layman-friendly and is on the web, you can find it at:
hell. His web site is.... um..... down, let's say. I'll send the
direct link in another message when his site gets back to normal.
>>Ganzfeld research shows (I've read) that psi is more likely to
>>happen if the senses are dampened.
This goes back to the earlier notes about psi "awareness," and also
relates to the above discussion about how difficult it is to separate
psi data from the senses. When you minimize the "noise" and
distractions, and increase the focus upon one's "inner self," you
generally do improve psi results. Again though, this probably has
nothing to do with psi and everything to do with (a) communication,
(b) psychology, (c) simply paying attention.
There is an excellent paper on ganzfeld research, published in
Statistical Science Journal in 1991, by Dr. Jessica Utts. It's great
because it's her paper, plus commentaries, plus a rejoinder. It's
a good education about how the ganzfeld remote viewing was done,
about how science measures this sort of thing, about how people
respond (skeptics displayed themselves beautifully in commentaries),
and more. Dr. Utts did a beautiful job on it, and she was one of the
first non-parapsychologist academics who had the courage to stand up
and say that the field has already proved itself dramatically better
than many other accepted scientific fields, that there is no reason
to keep duplicating the same experiments to keep proving the same
thing, that skeptics are making arguments literally based on no data
or even false data, and so on. To some degree the paper was a real
ground breaker and is worth reading. You can find the documents on
her home page; the direct link to the document menu is:
>>I wonder to what degree psi is inhibited (or induced) after say,
>>running a mile or eating a Big Mac or taking a bath etc.?
Supposedly people score well shortly after some good exercise;
enough to get them all wound up but not enough to exhaust them. But
people are at a sort of peak then in every category, so that
shouldn't be a surprise. I don't know about the others.
I do know that in tantric magick, sexual arousal and other means are
used to alter one's focus, some of which is to increase forms of psi.
Whether it works or not, I couldn't tell ya. Alas. My life is just
not that exciting.
>>It depends on what you want. Surely the truth is more important?
Yes, but that doesn't mean that knowing that one would only get worse
wouldn't be depressing. You can accept facts yet still find them
depressing. A lot of today's world is like that for me. :-)
>>If, eventually, it transpires that psi can be discovered and
>>harnessed like most other physical forces - but not by the methods
>>which psychics currently expect - then who is going to be
Well I personally have always felt that psi ability IS something that
our science should, eventually, be able to explain in terms it is
comfortable with. Right now we don't have the measuring equipment,
let alone proper receptive state of mind, for certain realizations,
but eventually we may. I look forward to it.
>>I'm reading his book "The Conscious Universe" right now. Excellent
>>bedtime stuff - to my wife's annoyance :)
I'm about 4/5 of the way through it too.
>>How come more studies are not done on children?
Who knows. Kids are probably much harder as subjects, for the same
reasons they're harder as actors or anything else. More researchers
are beginning to use children, though.
Date sent: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 12:41:07 +0000
Subject: Re: [Psi] Hey has anyone tried......
>But I call it EXTENDED sensory perception because we all have sensory
I called it extra, as in using it _more_ than normally, looking harder,
listening more acutely, actively paying attention and seeking information.
Take the quality of attention in a phonecall for instance.
If you are talking to a fellow psychic, or healer, or RVr, etc, you
_really_ listen. You know that somewhere in that conversation, there is
likely to be a word, a phrase, a message for you. Something you needed at
that time, a problem to work out. Similarly, somewhere along the line you
are likely to same something which opens a door or new line of thought to
your colleague. Therefore, you become much more focussed, more aware... of
what you hear, and what you say.
But take instead a phonecall, from a friend telling you what she did at a
party last night, and the pretty dress she bought at the shop today, I bet
no more than 10% of your attention is on that call. The rest is making a
sandwich, or playing with the cat.
Now, if I extend or use my extra sensors, I can reach out to feel if there
is someone standing behind me. If I did hear someone creeping about
outside. Sounds paranoid but you know what I mean. We focus on every sound,
or nuance, or perception. This is the "survival skill" PJ was talking
about. Then by taking that ultra alert state, and using it from a state of
peace, a still centre, to journey or focus inwards, and allowing it to just
be.... I find the channels of perception open.
Ooo. I love this list already. MaryD.
From: "PJ Gaenir"
Date sent: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 11:52:38 +0000
Subject: Re: [Psi] RV and TK
I'm reminded of a story a CRV instructor once told.
He said that Ingo apparently believed that RV really wouldn't work if
you had physical distractions, like you had to go to the bathroom, or
were hungry, or whatever. So the military put this to the test, so
to speak, as soldiers have a lot less leeway to whine. What they
discovered was that perhaps Ingo couldn't RV during those conditions,
but it was certainly not a rule for everyone. (At least not an absolute.)
So it was true in one situation but not in another.
I think the same goes with TK. (Telekinesis, also called PK or
psychokinesis.) As I pointed out in an earlier post, RV
methodologies are designed for data collection. They are not
designed for influencing anything, whether it be people or objects. I
happen to believe those things are possible, probable and happening
all the time. PK has been measured in the lab. Even fairly large
scale effects, but it isn't consistent enough to work for a good
study. But I have not seen this manifest as part of RV work itself.
It is a separate intent, separate method, separate result, and
apparently, a separate (though related) talent.
Date sent: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 13:12:04 -0600
From: Alan Hughes
Subject: [Psi] Hidden and repressed psi
I would be interested to know if anyone can comment on or provide
references relating to the following -
My brother-in-law, who is head of a secondary school mathematics
department, was for years in the habit of visiting a large shopping centre
in the middle of Manchester, UK, every Saturday morning. However, one
Saturday afternoon about a year ago he rang me in a state of some agitation
to say that when he woke up that morning he had an overwhelming feeling
that he should not go to Manchester that day. He did not go.
The reason for his agitation was that the shopping centre was badly damaged
by an IRA bomb that morning, some hours after his premonition, which had
saved him from possible injury or death.
He was baffled and frightened by this, not only because of his escape but
also because the whole event was outside his understanding. He told me
about it because he knew of my interest in the paranormal, which he had
thought to be rather odd up until the time this happened. He has told
nobody else and refused to fill in a research questionnaire on precognition
from the Koestler Centre in Edinburgh University.
In his attempts to explain this to himself, he came up with the idea that
the event was a warning from his deceased mother, to whom he was very close
and who had died in the previous year. This raised issues of survival of
death which frightened him even more. The situation now is that he is very
reluctant to talk or even think about it. He has had no similar experiences
since, which is not surprising because he most definitely does not want to.
He wants to forget it.
For me, this raises the question - how common is hidden and repressed psi
in the general population? How many decisions are based upon some degree
of psi input which is then not acknowledged or not known about in the first
place? I believe that Arther Koestler had some interest in this subject.
Furthermore, the event happened when my brother-in-law was in a very
disturbed state over the death of his mother. How far did this contribute
to it? It could well be that "anomalous cognition," as psi is sometimes
termed now, needs to be combined with a anomalous emotional state, very
difficult to reproduce in a laboratory, if is to be effective.
Perhaps if we look around us with an informed eye, we will find more
evidence of psi.
Date sent: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 13:53:32 -0800 (PST)
From: Joan Branch
Subject: Re: [Psi] Hidden and repressed psi
IMO your BIL's experience was his Higher Self keeping him safe. We all have
that little Inner Voice inside us. It will never lie to us, nor lead us
wrong. Since I also believe that Death is Life's last great adventure
before going to the next level, his mother could very well have triggered
From: "PJ Gaenir"
Date sent: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 14:39:50 +0000
Subject: Re: [Psi] Hidden and repressed psi
Yeah, experiences that happen to people who don't normally have those
sorts -- and that effect life and death -- are really unsettling.
One of the primary ways to "invoke" psi in a person is a direct
threat to their life. Being a survival skill, if it doesn't crop up
for them at that point, it never will.
I've also had the intense feeling sometimes that I shouldn't do
something -- and I didn't -- but never have any way to know if it
was justified or not. Sometimes something as simple as driving a
>>damaged by an IRA bomb that morning
(I realize that in Britain, the IRA is personally held responsible
for all ills on the face of the earth.)
Back in January of 1994, I was living near Los Angeles California
when there was a good sized earthquake. The ground my apartment
building was on was very soft, so we had effects dramatically more
severe than many places miles closer to the epicenter. I was
sleeping extremely deeply when what I can only describe as "a voice
inside me" *yelled,* "GET UPPPPPP!" with such profound "willing" that
my body -- I was still asleep, my body did this without any conscious
volition on my part -- literally flew out of bed. Just as my feet
hit the floor and I went stumbling forward (still not awake, but
getting there fast) there was the most terrific crash that began, and
I was halfway down my hallway before I was awake enough to realize
that the crash was of two extra-large-brick and wood bookshelves,
that covered two entire walls of my bedroom floor to ceiling, hitting
my bed and floor.
Many hours later when it was light and I could see (all power had
been knocked out), I went back into the bedroom. On my bed alone
were about 14 of these 30#+ bricks, half a dozen right on my pillow
area. Coming down with such force, and considering their hardness,
they likely would have killed me, or at least very seriously injured
me. Not to mention hundreds of pounds of books and wood, of course.
I was kind of shaken by how close I had come to dying. And whatever
saved me, which I assume was my subconscious, I'm grateful but it
made me feel even more vulnerable, that something I couldn't explain
had saved me from something I didn't know was coming.
That voice must have screamed inside me about one second BEFORE the
quake hit -- it was the first massive jolt that took out the shelves
(and threw half the people in L.A. literally out of their beds).
And I remembered that I kept having this sense that I should
anchor them to the wall, but the guys both at the brickyard and
lumber store had laughed at me saying, "Those things are WAY heavy,
they aren't going ANYWHERE, no matter what." So I thought I was just
being neurotic or something and took their advice.
Sigh. I learn more about intuition from not taking my own advice,
>>In his attempts to explain this to himself, he came up with the
>>idea that the event was a warning from his deceased mother, to whom
>>he was very close and who had died in the previous year.
Two aspects of this... first, I've found that everybody who
experiences psi puts it into their own belief systems. People who
have not had a lifetime of esoteric experiences to help them develop
a solid belief system related to this stuff are at a disadvantage.
Most usually have to interpret it through the only doorway the
culture allows, that being the ghost/angel theories.
However, I don't mean to be skeptical. Maybe it WAS the fellow's
mother. I have no problem with that idea. Could have been.
>>This raised issues of survival of death which frightened him even
Geez, he can't win. ;-) Sounds like he crashed into a belief system
in a big way and can't find his way out. There are many very
different concerns related to survival of death, from fears of the
ghoulies to whatever. It would help to nail down what his fear is
truly related to, in order to help him through it.
>>The situation now is that he is very reluctant to talk or even
>>think about it.
I understand that. I used to be quite a skeptic, and when I finally
began some mind-blowing "anomalous experiences," it took me awhile
before I realized that actually, I had had many odd experiences of
that nature for years. I just ignored them. They were so far
outside my belief system that I couldn't even interpret or process
them. I have memories of times things happened and I literally
"walked around them" and before I was 10 feet away had forgotten
them. Total denial. When I began becoming more open minded to this
kind of thing being possible, I began to remember pieces of my life,
events I had blocked out. It really was unsettling to see how easy
it is for a person to simply filter reality to suit them and then
have the laughable idea that their "belief about reality" actually IS
reality, even for other people.
>>For me, this raises the question - how common is hidden and
>>repressed psi in the general population?
I believe everybody has some degree of psi ability. The average
person usually only runs into it manifesting during great emotional
upheaval, or threat to the life of themselves or a loved one. Once
in awhile as a "mystical" religious experience.
>>How many decisions are based upon some degree of psi input which
>>is then not acknowledged or not known about in the first place?
There was a book called "Executive Psi" or something like that which
looked at some studies done on this, which demonstrated that the most
successful executives tended to score the best in psi trials. They
also tended to be the ones most open to admitting that they allowed
and trusted their intuition, gut instincts, or whatever you want to
>>It could well be that "anomalous cognition," as psi is
>>sometimes termed now, needs to be combined with a anomalous
>>emotional state, very difficult to reproduce in a laboratory, if is
>>to be effective.
(Minor note: anomalous cognition only applies to the forms of psi
related to receptive information, such as ESP and so on. "Psi" is a
generic term which applies to everything including PK for example,
which is not a form of anomalous cognition.)
You're right, it's hard to reproduce that in a laboratory. Combat
soldiers get big doses of psi, especially when they are totally wired
on maximum degrees of fear, anger, adrenalin, et al., but the only
way to measure that is by who survives. People often experience psi
when someone close to them has died, just due to their emotional
state, and sometimes to them being so desolate for the person's loss
that they are more willing to be open "to the other side" if it's
that person. In his case it sounds like a general "premonition,"
with no ghosts, angels, or other input required. But if it helps him
to believe that it was his mother, I would encourage that. If he's a
scientific sort who has a problem with psi, maybe introducing him to
some essays on non-local consciousness would be a better route.
Date sent: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 13:31:17 -0800 (PST)
From: Joan Branch
Subject: Re: [Psi] Decline Effects
>Are you really seeing an improvement in ability or merely an
>improvement in delivery of what was there all the time?
The reason they improve is because of the energy that is generated when
several are in one place doing the same work.
Subject: Re: [Psi] Decline Effects
In a message dated 98-01-17 16:31:36 EST, you write:
>The reason they improve is because of the energy that is generated when
>several are in one place doing the same work. Joan
Again..I would take you all back to the good old day when RV was done in labs
with careful monitoring and record keeping and not out of someones living room
with perfumed candles...in the military unit we saw no verifiable difference
in overall results / successes if one viewer were working a target or if all
ten or fifteen of us were working it...kinda blows holes in that secret
"energy" thing supposedly being generated like so much static when two or more
viewers get together...
Date sent: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 19:57:38 EST
Subject: Re: [Psi] Decline Effects
In a message dated 98-01-17 16:31:36 EST, email@example.com writes:
<< The reason they improve is because of the energy that is generated when
several are in one place doing the same work. Joan >>
An interesting theory.... any data to back it up, or is this speculation?
From: "PJ Gaenir"
Date sent: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 15:01:04 +0000
Subject: Re: [Psi] Decline Effects
>>in the military unit we saw no verifiable difference in overall
>>results / successes if one viewer were working a target or if all
>>ten or fifteen of us were working it... kinda blows holes in that
>>secret "energy" thing supposedly being generated like so much
>>static when two or more viewers get together...
I think this is another case where it's a different situation. As
far as remote viewing goes, in the lab they did find that under the
right conditions, two viewers on a target could increase overall data
obtained, however it did not increase *accuracy* of data nor did it
in any way seem to relate to accuracy merely because more than one
viewer "verified" the same data. They did not find that it made any
real difference in quality of results.
However, in the case of measured micro-PK it seems to be a
different story. According to the results compiled and surveyed in
Dr. Dean Radin's current book, "The Conscious Universe," he explains
that having two people of the same gender attempt to influence the
random number generator not only didn't improve results, but often
made them lower. (And bear in mind most of your intell unit
was men, and there was not, from many accounts, the best
morale there, nor did the members get to choose compatriots
they felt bonded with, as would be done in "living room magic" in
your example). However, two people of the opposite gender often got
results TWICE as high as those working alone. And opposite gender
teams who were "bonded." such as spouses and family got results FOUR
TIMES as high as the individual average. Plenty of scientific
test data went into demonstrating this.
(I think this demonstrates what magicians knew all along but that's a
whole 'nuther story.)
The situation of intell RV certainly makes people experienced there
experts in intell RV. But there are many other psi situations of
different kinds that may have alternate conditions and alternate
Have a good time on your trip! I'm sorry I've been so out of touch,
I kept thinking that "by now he's left already." Please get in touch
when you come home.
Date sent: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 17:48:53 -0800 (PST)
From: Joan Branch
Subject: Re: [Psi] Decline Effects
>An interesting theory.... any data to back it up, or is this speculation?
The only data I can supply is that I was there and could feel it, and see
it. At the end of a two-day seminar people who were novices, myself among
them, could identify almost all the numbers on a $ bill and both letters. I
was able to see the aura of others for the first time. Many of us could
identify objects in detail that were sealed in boxes. The air around us
End Archive #003 January 1998
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