firedocs archives

Public Viewer Email Group
Archive 021
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This is an archive file of the public Viewer [VWR] email list. This list is sponsored by the private Viewer Forum, hosted by Paradigm Systems and Design, and owned and operated by PJ Gaenir. It is dedicated to discussion of the practical aspects, theories and experience of formal psychic methodologies such as Controlled Remote Viewing, and independent efforts by the public interested in working under the formal RV protocol (the set of rules which define "remote viewing" as the term was coined in a science lab). You can find details, rules, and a form for joining the email group here. The list is moderated during operation and archiving. I remove last names and detail locations of contributors (within the archives) for privacy, and signatures for space conservation. I have added notes marking the posts from former U.S. intelligence remote viewers. Archiving of posts is done manually and may not include all posts.

This is the twenty-fourth archive.

NOTE: Archives 21-24 are... kind of messy. There was a massive volume of posts, many of which didn't make it to the archives because they were off-topic, humor, flames, etc.. (But, which may be what someone responded to in a post that did make it into the archives.) Due to the message volume and response time, you may even read something that responds to messages you've never seen but which might appear a couple of archives later. (I even found one beautiful and impossible example where someone's reply to a question was quoted as the inspiration for the post that asked the original question that got the reply. I'm so confused... really, we were in the twilight zone... ) And on top of all that, the majordomo was acting up so a few things just got outright lost. So if the linear process of these archives seems to be a bit fuzzy.... bear with us. -- PJ


SEPTEMBER 05 1997 TO SEPTEMBER 17 1997
BEGIN ARCHIVE 21

Hi Viewers,

Thought I'd share my current goings-on with you. Having decided that some degree of artistic ability would be good to cultivate -- my creativity is all in music and such, my drawing skill is nonexistent -- I bought that book "Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain" by Betty Edwards and have begun the exercises. All the decent Viewers I know have some artistic ability and many recommended that book. Every day I go sit in a semi-park nearby and meditate or draw or whatever for a couple of hours. I never have understood why I couldn't draw, seeing as how my visualization skills are pronouncedly good; I can even "superimpose" an image of a "sketch" of a face onto paper -- just can't draw it to save my life.

It truly is amazing, to see how well you do when something is unrecognized and you just draw it as you see it, rather than when you recognize something and then try to draw it. The drawings (or parts) I have done with left-hemisphere-dominance intact (when I recognize something, for instance) look like something a child would draw. Well. It would be bad even for a child. :-) The drawings (or parts) I do upside down and/or without recognition, are astonishingly good -- I mean, at least compared to what I thought I could draw.

The point of the exercises in the book is teach you to recognize WHEN you are in right-hemisphere-dominance mode, so that you can get there on your own deliberately. This is done by assigning exercises that the left brain, mostly out of sheer boredom and disgust, will have nothing to do with. Though you don't feel the 'transition' from one state to another, you do at a certain point realize that you are or were in a sort of "timeless space of oneness with what you were doing."

The point of this to RV is that intuitive work is highly right-hemisphere dominant (at least as this is understood today -- cerebral stuff is still a developing science). As far as RV methodologies go, the structure is designed much like a hypnotic exercise, where you keep the logical brain busy doing stuff so the intuitive brain can work on its own without interference.

The book itself is laid out kind of like a drawing course, and I think it takes at least a couple months to get through it all if you do everything she recommends. Maybe when I'm done I'll put some before and after sketches on the firedocs web site as an example. In any case, I'll let you know what effect if any it has on either my ability to communicate what I perceive during an RV session, or on my ability to more easily get to a state of mind where perception of that sort is more fluid.

PJ


PJ: You might be interested to know, Paul used that book with great success to teach us in the old unit what the concept of right brain / left brain really meant....It's really good stuff...

Gene

[Archive Note: Gene "Kincaid," former U.S. Intell RV]


>Thought I'd share my current goings-on with you. Having decided that >some degree of artistic ability would be good to cultivate -- my >creativity is all in music and such, my drawing skill is nonexistent...

Ditto here. My Jr. High art teacher told me that I had the *best* ideas, but they all sort of fell apart in the execution. That's what I liked about the film business, other people could actually create the images and atmosphere. I didn't need to worry about all that.

While I think it's probably really useful to do the book exercises you were discussing, I feel that it's important to realize that drawing may not be the only expression of the right-brain dominant state.

I'm very good at getting a lot of visual detail when I'm RVing, but often I don't "see" it, or rather, that process of visualizing it, even in my inner vision, is secondary. The first step is that I *feel* the objects around me. I *feel* colors. Feeling happens first and visual conceptualization/manifestation (if I can call it that) happens second. In fact, these steps occur almost simultaneously, but I think there is that translation process happening.

What does everyone else think of this idea?

Skye


> vision, is secondary. The first step is that I *feel* the objects around > me. I *feel* colors. Feeling happens first and visual > conceptualization/manifestation (if I can call it that) happens second.

Hi Guys

This is a really interesting point, the way we actually see or perceive the information, Ive been struggling with this one for a while now, Its like different types of film, that they use in the movies, each one has a perculilar quality all to itself, I feel that this can sometimes help, to determine what dimension or type of energy is actually being seen, But it is eneffable to be able to describe. All that we can determine is that it is different in some way.

axe


Re: Points of view, etc.:

I insist you guys assume on a sense of humor! Remember humor doesn't translate too well in email -- some people are using it and getting responded to like they were being seriously annoying. Relax... :-)

Re: English:

Gene, David Pursglove messages are a double whammy you see. You either get them and crack up, or you don't get them at all, to such a degree that one is immediately in hypnotic confusion. Whatever you read immediately after his message is now part of your subconscious forever...

David is the guy who told me about remote viewing and introduced me to Lyn Buchanan by the way. We were talking about the ethics of TK/PK when it came up. I'd never heard of it until him. So, I have David to thank for my getting involved in this subject in the first place. (And D, there are a few people who want to send you email bombs now.)

Re: Christianity vs. Psi:

As a former Christian who later studied Judaism, Buddhism, Mormonism, general mysticism and metaphysics and am now a Gnostic Catholic (iow magician occultist), I can assure you that people with teeny little minds -- and people with expansive minds -- come in all faiths and all walks of life. One of the reasons I appreciate remote viewing (on the lab side) and controlled remote viewing (on the methods side) is because there is NO religious or philosophical belief system either required or inherent or included in training. (There are belief systems of course -- just not religious ones.) Since I have to assume the majority of people on this mailing list are at least open minded enough to hear about RV, then I think the subject of who does NOT believe it's possible is somewhat moot.

I would however really like to see some of the insightful people on this list talk about some hands-on methods for self improvement that address belief systems or ANY aspect of psychology that, dealt with, could directly benefit one's remote viewing abilities and/or ability to deal with remote viewing abilities. I really feel this is a critical part of any evolution, but particularly one as inner-core belief/fear-laden as psi perception is in our culture. I am not trying to distract from hands-on & theory of RV discussion, but I think the personal development is part of both of those areas, and without dealing with those issues, it's all head-games, it's surface meanings, it's a "hobby" but not the kind of experience and skill we really want to see happen with people, change people, and change the world as a result.

Re: David Morehouse:

Now you guys, since this list began I have been fighting to keep Dave's name off it, because it only leads to chaos and grumpiness. It's been a big fight for me behind the scenes that you haven't seen. The only person ever banned from this list was someone who wouldn't quit bringing him up (to sort of pre-defend him); and I did that actually to SAVE Dave from further bashing, although the fellow banned is sure I did it because I am evil and won't let him defend the guy. For the record, I've only talked to Dave on the phone a few times, but he's always been very friendly to me. I personally have nothing against him. For the public who have made comments confused about why the former intelligence Viewers on this list are so hard on him though, I should note that there is a very large and gloomy history that you know nothing about and that has generated this state of things.

[Archivist Note: Remainder of this section was snipped out of the archives. Suffice to say, the list is about Remote Viewing, not about media or people in the media, and so the topic of (usually "arguments related to") D.M. is now off limits and gives me "moderator fever."]

Re: Books:

I had out of body (OBE) experiences my entire life. When I was 19 I read a book about how to do it (thought maybe they were talking about something other than the "obvious" thing I'd long been doing). After reading the book my ability was nearly obliterated. Now it's only spontaneous. I can only assume this had something to do with belief systems; I didn't know it was SUPPOSED to be difficult, but after reading this book assuring me it wasn't, I sort of reverse-inferred it MUST be or they wouldn't be going on about it. I'm a big fan of just DOING things prior to reading about them if possible, you never know what you might have a natural talent for if you try. Also, don't forget that some of the old methods can be as effective as whatever current book is on the shelf, e.g., Carlos Castaneda's techniques for lucid dreaming are as good as any I've encountered. (Although that does come with a rather large dose of belief systems.)

Re: What I call "Anomalous Targets"

I only got ten sign-ups for the potential [PSI] email group I offered -- for RV and other formal methodologies applied to "anomalous" and non-feedback or personal targets. (Aliens, personal psychology, anomalous science, etc. I would not be much involved in that; it would be unmoderated. I just offered to pay for it and run it so Viewers into that stuff would have a place to talk.) I require 35 signups if I'm going to make the list. Send an email to psi@zmatrix.com and in the body of the email type subscribe psi your_email@here. If those who signed up can find 25 more people to join, I'll make the list.

Re: Firedocs

I never got around to mentioning it here, but my Firedocs site was updated recently. The current 'featured' page has misc. info on Joe McMoneagle, you guys might be interested. There is also a page I just made for "public contributions." Any articles, how-to's, or other information you'd like to put online somewhere, you're welcome to put on the Firedocs site public page, then you can send people to it if you like. Doesn't have to be RV -- just has to be in some way related to science, psi or psychology. I even offer to do the work of putting it in HTML for you, etc. What aa deal! http://www.firedocs.com/remoteviewing/

Re: VWR Archives

The Viewer group archives are... massively out of date at the moment. Sorry. They're all done manually, and it takes a lot of time I don't have. But I'm going to be working on it and am hoping to get all the archives up in public (on Firedocs) by the end of September.

[Archivist Note: As of November, I'm doing the September archives -- guess I missed THAT goal!]

I think that covers everything for now. Hope y'all are doing well.

Practice! Happy Viewing. :-)

PJ


I have to agree with Rusty, a real fear exists in all "orthodox" versions of religions of anything that falls outside the boundaries of their particular dogma. I think that as the RV community grows, it may be perceived as another "occult" threat by the fundamental establishment as have alot of consciousness evolution. Perhaps the side-effect blessings of RV will transform the fear. Although, there have been a lot of do-good heretics burnt at the stake by the very people they helped and healed. I am curious about the perceptions of the "Viewerati" (= term of endearment for all the experienced RV masters) regarding this topic. I know you dealt with a form of institutional fear in the military experience.

Hopefully, as long as the separation of the church and the state continues to exist as designed by our gnostic, masonic forefathers (Washington, Jefferson, Franklin, et al), we can continue to consort with the "devil'. If that protection breaks down, then I suspect that a lot of we heretics will be carted off at the front of the line to the "camps" along with all the other "differents."

RV represents to me personally a potential "bridge" between my scientific worldview and my mystical worldview. I came across a beautiful myth by Rutgers philosopher, Renee Weber, quoted by Dean Radin in his new book (p 272):

"In the beginning there was wonder and awe. These inspired the search with which science and religion began. Originally they were one, untroubled by the modern separation that would develop to decree that they become distinct domains with uncrossable borders. In that seperation, the sense of wonder became science, the sense of awe mysticism .... To this day, science seeks the boundaries of nature, mysticism its unboundedness, science the droplet of the ocean, mysticism the wave.... They share the search for reality because, in their own way, both science and mysticism look for the basic truth about matter and the source of matter."

As a potential "baby viewer" I suspect that RV is not possible wihout BOTH "wonder" and "awe".

Again thanks to ALL in this group for their wisdom, insights, experience, patience, understanding and courage! (and especially PJ's sacrifice and hard work)

Blessings, Vic


Hi Vic,

>>I think that as the RV community grows, it may be perceived as another "occult" threat by the fundamental establishment as have alot of consciousness evolution.

Could well be. Most occultists are truly insulted at the things the "fundamental establishment" (as you call it) consider occult, by the way. It's ironically similar to the old comment whites made about native americans or blacks -- "they all look alike to me." Well, the native religions and the black arts are in the same boat -- apparently they all look alike to everybody else. ;-)

I have lightly considered that I could maybe get a zillion fundies to learn RV if I just advertised that I was teaching this "logical scientific" thing to occultists who were twisting it to their Wicked Purposes. (I say this jokingly of course.) Maybe it'd encourage 'em to learn it and twist it into their own purpose. ;-) On one hand, psychic war might be a bad thing. On the other, done decently, this stuff HAS to cause personal growth, which would be a good thing. I dunno -- maybe that's a case of the ends never justifying the means, or a big assumption anybody WOULD do it decently, but it is a sort of amusing thought to me when I've nothing else to think about...

>>I am curious about the perceptions of the "Viewerati" (= term of endearment for all the experienced RV masters) regarding this topic.

ROFL! Vic, that is GREAT! "Viewerati." I'm going to steal that, I hope you don't mind -- what a great term!

(Some magician friends of mine, partly in jest about how when 'in state' nobody can spell [or sometimes think] linearly at all, named their group "The Illiterati." [Something many of us on this list qualify for too. <g>] I thought that was just hilarious!)

PJ


Dean Radin, author of "The Conscious Universe" was guest on Jeff Rense's Sightings on the Radio last night. If you have multimedia capability on your computer, you can listen by going to http://www.sightings.com and clicking on archived shows, then select last night's date.

I haven't listen yet, but Radin was on Art Bell a week or so ago and it was a good show.

I'm about half-way through his book and highly recommend it as a history of psi research. Radin goes into a lot of detail about the intricacies of designing tests for psi. This work has been so thorough that Hyman, of CSICOP fame, has given his recommendation of the book.

I know, if I'd get off the Internet, I could finish that book, plus Clancey's "Executive Orders," and then I could get on to the book Pursglove recommended, "Breaking the Godspell." "D" has chewed me out for placing spy-thrillers above planet-saving books like Godspell, but I guess he doesn't understand how spies could save the planet (under the Godspell or not). Someday I'll clue him in...if I ever get off the Internet. ;-)

Skye


Hi All,

I was wondering if anyone has had an experience such as this. Last week I took a target to view. I'm in the U.S., the target was from a male in the U.K. (unknown to me). When I viewed the target I only felt or sensed but no visual. I felt first, trauma to the nose area, then solar plexus then down to pelvic area ( this was felt as light-moderate pressure) then sense pain in heart area, and "I" begin to have great difficulty in my breathing, I have realized I am viewing a heart attack or death, Then relaxed and staying with this, I sense/feel the being lifting out of the body as at death. (sitting up from a lay position).

Well the next day I view the target again, and I get the same thing, all the way to the lifting out. I don't want to tell the targeter my impressions, but I feel they may pertain to him, so I take his name, say "Bob Smith U.K. etc" and view this. What I saw was mostly correct data on "Bob Smith" (he verified) As it turns out the "target"he posted was "Bob Smith current time". When I viewed his target I saw heart failure. When I view "Bob" I see Bob. Does anyone have a clue to this? The viewing did not contain emotions so was not upsetting, also Bob Smith is fine.

Thanks for your time and input if you will,

Terri


Hi Terri,

Interesting target the tasker chose. What about him were you supposed to be targeting? His location? His health? His mental state? Was that in the tasking? -- It should be, if you're going to target a person. Were you doing the session at a pre-arranged time, so that he could actually give you feedback on exactly what was going on with him in those areas at that time? If you're going to do RV practice, be sure you take the trouble to plan your targets, tasking and feedback well. It would be a shame to put in the practice and then not have exact feedback. Your tasker needs to be well aware of how RV works in teamwork situations.

As for the tasker choosing to task you with himself, it would _almost_ serve him right if you came back and told him the target was having heart failure -- which in turn could probably give him such. LOL! OK, not funny.... no, it is.... there'd be a hard-learned tasking lesson.... ;-)

PJ


>When I viewed his target I saw heart failure. When I view "Bob" I see >Bob. Does anyone have a clue to this?

Interesting "coincidence" -- at a time when the whole of England was focused on Diana's horrendous death -- and what you describe is quite consonant with the autopsy report on her injuries and the cause of death.

Perhaps this massed concentration just overlaid your actual target.

Tom


> I was wondering if anyone has had an experience such as this. ...

Diana.

Rob


Thank you PJ, you wrote

<< What about him were you supposed to be targeting? His location? His health? His mental state?

To my knowledge the target was simply, "Bob Smith current time".

Was that in the tasking? -- It should be, if you're going to target a person. Were you doing the session at a pre-arranged time,

Nope...

so that he could actually give you feedback on exactly what was going on with him in those areas at that time?

When I decided to view "Bob" (and not his target, which was himself) I viewed him correctly at the time and place he was occuping in the U.K. during my viewing session.

As for the tasker choosing to task you with himself, it would _almost_ serve him right if you came back and told him the target was having heart failure -- which in turn could probably give him such.

Oh God, you've got me rolling on the floor laughing.....(don't tell anyone ;-) :-)

LOL! OK, not funny.... no, it is.... there'd be a hard-learned tasking lesson.... ;-)

Yes I agree with your view, while I am personally i'm pretty much "game", for any game, I suspected that on the taskers end there was a bit of innocence, so...I just could not cave him in, and it has turned out I was right, this boy is starting college, young, full of mischief and fun...so I guess, this is just one more lesson/experience for me, and it is really something to go thru a heart attack, knowing full well your body is alive and well.!

Terri


>>Perhaps this massed concentration just overlaid your actual target. >>

Yes, I had thought of this also, and this is why I viewed the target again, trying to pick up if this was male or female, the circumstance, and I got absoultly zilch in emotions or senses, zero, (which is strange for my viewing) just a carbon copy of the first viewing, like it was stuck in time. Hummm (very strange also). It was very different, I guess a first time for everything...

The night of Dianas accident, about 12:00 EST, I went "out" to check on her, (I don't want to gross you out here) well... I knew she had "transitioned". The next day I checked on her again and I find her "doing fine". The Diana incident did really get to me for some reason, also that week the grieving energy overlay on the planet was hard to side step. Thanks much,

Terri


> He said a new area for research, will be several people > at once viewing the same target, thus generating enough > focus (and force) which will prove more beneficial, > but not without its problems.

Everything old is new again. Haven't you all heard of magic circles with a group of adepts focusing together on a goal? While many of them are incompetently run or ego-dominated or simply deluded, there are those that are quite competent as well. It makes sense that this will be the next thing to be "discovered". Every so often, folks have to find a way to fit old truths into their changed world-view. Just so long as you all don't start renaming the demons and consorting with same! <Just a joke!>

Rusty


>>Everything old is new again. Haven't you all heard of magic circles with a group of adepts focusing together on a goal?

Good point Rusty.

>>Every so often, folks have to find a way to fit old truths into their changed world-view. Just so long as you all don't start renaming the demons and consorting with same! <Just a joke!>

Trivia: Daemon is from the Greek, meaning "messenger." (DRV: Daemon RV! Haha!) Lot of interesting entities around magicians. Once had a newbie say he was talking to angels. Someone asked how he knew it was an angel. He said, in completely certain innocence, "Well, he had wings!" (We laughed so hard we nearly hurt ourselves.) Personally I am fond of the "archetypes" theory and see all entities as "an aspect of me." This requires some hedging (i.e., "I AM" Babalon / universe / all things) to make it work of course, but certainly seems to have smoothed the way over some strange critters and experiences -- and doesn't require I worship anybody except "one god" -- my old Christian background never dies, I guess (though it does run screaming into the night about some of this stuff).

As for "critters" -- Some of those critters you apparently find via SRV but never via CRV. The debate about "why" this is will probably never end. ;-)

Hey, what a novel idea this gives me. If Courtney can wrap up RV in Maharishi Ayurveda/TM stuff, and add massages and all kind of neat things to the process (all I can say is, SRVrs are having a LOT more fun at this process than my boring old CRV approach, ha!), maybe I should drag RV into magick.

Oooohhhh.... Thelemic Viewers. That makes even soldiers/intelligence Viewers seem pretty sweet and innocent by comparison, doesn't it.

Hmmmn. I wonder, can I say something useful to redeem this post?

Assuming that the RV protocol is followed properly (blinding! blinding! feedback! feedback! ad nauseum...), I would be really interested to hear the results of some group RV work. Try it both in the same room together and in separate rooms but at the same time, I think there may be a difference (could be better to be slightly separate).

As a side note, I had been talking about "two or more people doing RV sessions" with a number of different people, when all the sudden somebody totally separate brought it up on the list. Quite a coincidence.

PJ


There were more than a few experiments done over the years at SRI and SAIC to try and prove more psychics focused on the same target improved results.

The results were negative. Statistically nothing changes with regard to accuracy or amount of material (contrary to what a lot of the current mythology says).

When dealing with people's "intent" which does appear to have a significant (yet not completely understood) affect on RV, I've learned one thing is for sure--put more than one person in a room doing the same thing, and no matter how much you talk about it, you will have two people trying to do the same thing two different ways.

Regards,

Joe

[Archive Note: Joseph McMoneagle, former U.S. Intell RV]


A couple of quick notes...first and foremost..trying to look at clock time and equating the times to a specific session or event you are viewing is like tossing a feather in a well and listening for the splash...time and space are not really an element of control in a remote viewing session...so be real careful about trying to do any clock matching... Next..you are now faced with an enigma we in the military program had to face on numerous occasions. You seem to have slipped a bit into the future and seen something distressing...If you do nothing, it will happen...if you do something to affect the future such as ask the guy if he has had an EKG recently you may well modify the future in his favor or maybe not in his favor...We often saw "things" in the future affecting key personalities and we would notify the affected protective services...They took small steps to change the future and nothing happened...were we wrong in what we saw since it did not happen? The only way to prove it would be not to report it and then sit back and watch the person living the unaffected future...tough call... Good luck....

Gene


Hi,

Were there ever any studies or experiences like this where the viewers didn't report and the future unfolded like it was viewed? or...does the act of viewing affect the future in a subtle way?

Vickie


Were there ever any studies or experiences like this where the viewers didn't report and the future unfolded like it was viewed? or...does the act of viewing affect the future in a subtle way?

Whew...Let me see if I can shed some light on this...actually Paul Smith knows more about this than me but here goes...If you view and do nothing to influence the outcome, it will happen the way you viewed it...If, on the other hand, you take positive action to change something in the future you viewed, it will also change and in doing so, lots of other seemingly unrelated things will change.

Paul Smith once explained it to me in terms of fractal geometry...the closer you get to the object the more diffused it will appear even at the sub-atomic level. When we (as the military organization) were called upon to view the future we did so knowing that even a totally unbelieving audience would probably take our advice and change the future. Example...Remember when President Reagan dedicated the newly renovated Statue of Liberty? Secret Service asked us to give it a shot. We saw mayhem and death from an aircraft comitting a suicide mission by flying a load of high explosives directly into the Statue (and the platform where the President was standing). We told them to change the future...They modified a no-fly zone form five miles to fifteen miles and nothing happened as you well know. Did we cause nothing to happen? I don't know, all I do know is that everyone of us saw the same outcome even though we were kept totally isolated from one another in keeping with our strict protocols.

We once saw a fire extinguisher being used to blow up an auditorium with the President inside. the Secret Service, moved all fire extinguishers outside the room two days in advance. Nothing happen...did we cause the "nothing"..again I don't know...It would appear that the future is "there" but the ink is not yet dry...it's only in draft form like one of my hobby writings...take a character out of Chapter two and you have to modify the remainder of the book to make sure the character does not appear and that anything caused by the character doesn't occur....The future is much like this...seeing it is one thing...influencing it is another...

One final example...If the future does not change or cannot be influenced by RV...how come we all haven't won at least a dozen State lotteries?...A)..RV is not very good at finite numbers and B)..If you played the numbers you saw you are actually influencing the outcome (future)...

Forgot one last bit of info...reference using RV for medical purposes. I know of two or three RV'rs who can "get inside" another person and diagnose problems. In one case we did this with several members of the Politburo in the Kremlin. However, not everyone can do this. Some of the really great viewers just couldn't seem to latch on to this type of target...no explanation just fact. Let me think about it for a while and If I come up with anymore hairbrained theories I'll let you know....

Regards...Gene...

[Archive Note: Gene "Kincaid," former U.S. Intell RV]


> favor...We often saw "things" in the future affecting key personalities and > we would notify the affected protective services...They took small steps to > change the future and nothing happened...were we wrong in what we saw since > it did not happen? The only way to prove it would be not to report it and > then sit back and watch the person living the unaffected future...tough > call...

IMHO, it is no different than seeing somebody about to step in front of a moving truck. You yell, grab, or do whatever possible to stop him. Yes, he might have seen the truck and not run into it on his own. Or, your yelling or grabbing could distract him and again lead to tragedy presuming he would have noticed the truck otherwise. Do you think about all that? Not normally, you just go ahead and yell or grab. That is because 5 times out of 10, the situation is improved. And, 4 times out of 10, it doesn't make any difference if you act or don't act. So, that leaves 1 out of 10 where your interference makes matters worse. (Numbers are just a personal swag.)

Rusty


<< We often saw "things" in the future affecting key personalities and we would notify the affected protective services...They took small steps to change the future and nothing happened...were we wrong in what we saw since it did not happen? The only way to prove it would be not to report it and then sit back and watch the person living the unaffected future...tough call... Good luck.... >>

Ugh, no doubt, what a moral quagmire that is..Well I guess that changing the future to protect the persons from the incidents viewed would be important. My thought is one of how much our actions to change a potentially viewed future actually ripple and touch other persons.

Eg:

Scenario A: Man has a heart attack and dies. His wife becomes a widow, sleeps with the preacher and consequently becomes pregnant with baby Jane. Baby Jane is born and grows up to be the next Mother Teresa, touching bajillions of lives. ( not likely.. but hey... it's my example!! :P )

Scenario B: A viewer sees the man having the heart attack 6 months before it happens. He warns him, and the guy gets help and doesn't die, hence, the future is changed, the preacher doesn't defile the widow, the baby isn't born, no new Mother Teresa type, no countless lives touched by the Bastard Baby.

My point? Ok my point is that for all of our machinations to do a good deed and save somebody through our perceptions, and warning them, the reality of it is that we may have caused something else to go wrong by intervening, something we may never know about, but that is equally significant to somebody else. Maybe the bottom line is that it only does us any good if we don't care what other lives we may be effecting through our manipulation of the future. A perfect role for the US govt... ( Sorry military guys, but you know the higher ups don't give a rat's behind for anything aside from covering the important intelligence issues, each other's arses, and national security. No slight intended towards you.) Ok.. I am done ranting for the night, I'll shut up now. ::grins::

Sarah


>IMHO, it is no different than seeing somebody about to step in front of >a moving truck. You yell, grab, or do whatever possible to stop him. <...>

A useful and important observation--and one I support. There is, however, one significant difference between your truck analogy and a "psychic" warning a public figure and because of even slight changes in security, the public figure is saved. In the case of the truck, there is no doubt in anyone's mind that there is a threat from which the person rescued (presuming in favor of the 6/10 odds :-) was saved. In the case of The "psychic" warning, however, it is never so clear.

In most cases, if there was a threat (and sometimes it turns out to be AOL, of course), and due to a judicious warning it is avoided, afterwards the threat never becomes obvious, and so no one is ever sure that there ever WAS a threat in the first place. There gets to be a nagging doubt in the backs of the minds of the security guys and the public figure that "Maybe these psychic guys are just jerking us around and making fools of us!"--which is of course exactly the image that would be projected were the press or a boss to find out about it. "WHAT! Some PSYCHIC told you not to go to such-and-such because you'd be blown up by a bomb, and you BELIEVED it? DID a bomb go off? NO? Well what kind of an idiot ARE you, believing that kind of nonsense?"

Just look what happened to the Reagan's and their flirtation with astrology!

Paul

[Archive Note: Paul H. Smith, former U.S. Intell RV]


Hi Sarah,

Lucky me, I guess my philosophy nicely steps around the moral quagmires of whether to act or not to act. If one believes that all consciousness is sovereign, and that individuals create their own reality, then it doesn't matter whether you warn somebody of impending danger or not.

I feel nobody is born or dies by accident and without the permission of their own 'higher self'/god.*/whatever. If a person's soul had chosen to leave this plane, they would do it even if you showed up at their house with a cardiac emergency kit 10 minutes before anything happened. If it wasn't that, it would be something else they'd choose or use.

Follow that philosophy far enough and you come back to the point that you the person have to do whatever you FEEL is RIGHT. Not based on the outcome; not based on the statistical probability of correctness; not based on the severity of what could happen; but based on what you intuitively feel is the right thing to do, for no other reason than because you feel it is right. (Many people, of course, are pretty tuned out of their intuitive mind and can only make decisions based on objectified circumstance. But the point is that all people should direct these kinds of decisions to whatever divinity they feel is part of them, since the logical-brain is never going to have the information to make a sound decision.)

Just my meanderings -- certainly doesn't work for everybody...

PJ


I feel nobody is born or dies by accident and without the permission of their own 'higher self'/god.*/whatever. If a person's soul had chosen to leave this plane, they would do it even if you showed up at their house with a cardiac emergency kit 10 minutes before anything happened. If it wasn't that, it would be something else they'd choose or use.

I can agree with that. But who is to say that the path that their soul chose after the future was manipulated would be as good? Well I suppose that it doesn't matter as it all balances out in the end. I think my point was more one of the idea that when we change the future to stop a wrong from happening it can just as easily cue in another wrong to happen to somebody somewhere else, or to the same person in a different way further down the line. Short of being Omniscient, we know that our actions are probably only a temporary and localized fix. Maybe I am just complaining about my own feeling of helplessness, because I know that there is no one sided coin out there, and that the act of forestalling a dreaded act in the future may spawn another that is even more eggregious. Does this make sense to y'all? Maybe I have been reading up on the quantum paradigm too much lately.

<< Follow that philosophy far enough and you come back to the point that you the person have to do whatever you FEEL is RIGHT. Not based on the outcome; not based on the statistical probability of correctness; not based on the severity of what could happen; but based on what you intuitively feel is the right thing to do, for no other reason than because you feel it is right.>>

Aww heck PJ.. we all know that if we saw our grandma getting in a car wreck on the way over to christmas dinner we would tell her to take the train. We couldn't stop ourselves from doing so probably, even if we wanted to. We have to do what we feel is right.. most of us are driven to that, to protect. Maybe the point is we would not be given these glimpses if we were not meant to avert the initial bad scenario and thus cause the other...

<< (Many people, of course, are pretty tuned out of their intuitive mind and can only make decisions based on objectified circumstance. But the point is that all people should direct these kinds of decisions to whatever divinity they feel is part of them, since the logical-brain is never going to have the information to make a sound decision.)>>

Truthfully? I really don't know the answer. That is why to me it is a moral quagmire. part of me says go, the other part says stop.. different sides of my brain talking here... But as one who tends to operate from the intuitive side, most probably I would go with taking the action to change that small bit of future, intuiting that at least for myself, and the ones around me that I love the most, it will only bring a better life. As to the Karma of the action itself, I will probably never know, but that is all paradox.

Just my late night rantings and ravings guys.. pay me no mind...

Sarah


<< Maybe the point is we would not be given these glimpses if we were not meant to avert the initial bad scenario and thus cause the other... >>

One more thought here.... Maybe we are not meant to do anything at all, and it is just a maze of diffferent thread and actions on concurrent timelines reaching out into infinity in all directions..

Sarah


I remote viewed a target, the other day, and when I entered a room during the session, I suddenly had a green (neon coloured) grid, made of light which covered my body, by showing the contours of my form, this is the first time I have actually been aware of myself, It was really strange feeling.

Has anyone had a similar experience.

axe


Hi Sarah

> > Eg: > > Scenario A: > ... Scenario B: > ...

If I understand the way it works then if any soul wanted to enter our exitance to comlete a certain task or tasks, then circumstance will permit it So in your Scenario C the wife would divorce her man because he changed his livestyle and sleep with the preacher..........or her hubbie would become preacher and..........;)

Egill


><< We often saw "things" in the future affecting key personalities and > we would notify the affected protective services...[snip]

In my own opinion I believe you are all making a mountain out of a mole hill with this issue.

If a psychic sees something about to happen (assassination), then they are faced with a number of issues.

First and foremost--this is an ethical problem. So the question that must be answered is:

Do you warn the person about to be assassinated?

If it is a person who has hired them to look out for them in the first place, I believe the answer is yes.

If it is a person who has not asked (even if it's the President of the United States) then you now have another question to ask yourself:

Did I stumble onto this information by accident, or did I intend to obtain it. If you got it by accident (targeting something else), then you can either report it, or not report it. If you got it because you looked without permission, then it is none of your business and it should not be reported.

I believe the same laws regarding privacy apply here. Which incidently, were the same laws that personnel within the unit were required to follow.

If you are ethically required to report it and you do, and as a result changes are made and nothing happens: Then...sorry folks...by virtue of feedback, your remote viewing was "wrong." Live with it. I personally--having been faced with this dilemma on more than one occasion--would rather live with the "missed it" stamped across my folder, than the loss.

In reality, as far as the customer is concerned, because they are a customer, they are usually well versed about and acknowledge the inherent problems in using precognitive information to alter history or change a result. So, when they take action based on precognitive information and nothing happens they know there is just a likely a possibility that it was the warning which caused nothing to happen. Believe me, they do not denegrate the prediction as a result.

If that were not the case, then very effective counter-intelligence would never be funded. Regardless of effectiveness, you still have plenty by which you can judge the threat. In other words, the word (feedback) eventually gets back anyway.

Since there are no methods by which this thing called RV or Psychic functioning can be regulated, the ethical question become the paramount issue. Even when applied to life and death. It becomes very much like the issue of freedom of speech. There can be no equivocation on ethics. We have got to honor them more than anyone else. Otherwise, we psychics will very soon find ourselves being hunted down again and burned at the stake.

So, while I'm at it; Palyne, change your diet; Paul, change your route to work; Rusty, only cross at lights; and...

Regards,

Joe

[Archive Note: Joseph McMoneagle, former U.S. Intell RV]


>>We have been away for 4 days and came home to 107 messages...probably 85 of them titled "fear of Psi".

And to think, I thought I would have to re-hammer at this repeatedly to get anybody to address it.

I think it's because unlike METHODS, we're talking about stuff that _everybody_ can and/or has experienced; nobody owns psi or psychology of course; and something that touches people more.

It's a catch-22 of course. On one hand, I find it interesting, so I'm always interested to read what people contribute. On the other, I'm starting to groan when I get my email, there's so much. ;-) But, half the reason for the email list is the archives -- which will be terrifically improved for having all this.

PJ


Roger...

Having done many of the things you suggest already in my life there is one other element at work here. When you immerse yourself in another country, change your time zone, (thus sleeping habits, ) food, everything your sensory apparatus is picking up... if you are not with someone who knows you, i.e., has a concept of who and what you are, then you become unlimited in a very special way. If you can spend a couple of weeks in this alternate reality situation, you can actually establish very great changes in yourself...in your basic concept of yourself, so that when you go back to your ordinary reality, you are able to hold on to those changes in the midst of other peoples concepts.

I have found that the concepts of those around you about who you are, can be very strong, and people will resist any changes in those close to them because it makes them uncomfortable, and so there is subtle and not so subtle pressures brought to bear on the "wavemaker", to go back to being who they have always been. If you really want to change yourself in big ways, sometimes you have to actually relocate...have a different circle of associates...or many different circles of associates, so that you don't get imprisoned by the concepts of others...or remain unknown enough or mysterious enough that no one is able to hem you in with concepts. As soon as someone thinks they know you, you are in a box. At that point, you could grow an extra head and turn purple and they wouldn't notice because they are no longer interacting with you, but their concept of you.

Ingo's last couple of essays on perception really nail this on the head. His description of what actually goes on when we "see" something with our eyes is truly amazing and when one reads it is one of those things that you know you know, but it has never been put that way before...when the photons bounce off something that is interfering in the wave pattern...this goes to the visual cortex which goes to your biocomputer memory and checks it out against everything stored there. If there is no match, you won't see anything. If there is something that somewhat resembles the wave pattern...that is what you "see". All this takes such a minute amount of time we don't even notice it.

So the biocomputer is always identifying everything (as Lyn calls it..the Nag (Namer and Guesser) This is the way we maintain our world according to don Juan...we identify everything and then we talk to ourselves about it.

I find humans utterly fascinating. If we ever truly understand just how powerfully creative we are....

Leveda


Leveda,

>>As soon as someone thinks they know you, you are in a box. At that point, you could grow an extra head and turn purple and they wouldn't notice because they are no longer interacting with you, but their concept of you.<<

That is terrifically true. I'm glad you said it so clearly.

Which sort of walks us into a separate but also relevant part of this whole fear of psi discussion -- the effect that Viewing and personal development and paradigm shift has on the people around you, the people you live with, the culture you still have survive in -- and in turn, then, on the Viewer.

PJ


Gene you write: - And Thank You.....

A couple of quick notes...first and foremost..trying to look at clock time and equating the times to a specific session or event you are viewing is like tossing a feather in a well and listening for the splash...time and space are not really an element of control in a remote viewing session...so be real careful about trying to do any clock matching...

Yes I understand time considerations, and do not use time considerations (to the best of my ability, I go in blind) in viewing unless specified by targeter, but for me, to my suprise, when viewing a target at present time frame, it has turned out that what I report has been consistant with what the person was doing at that time of day ("I' having no idea who or what they they are). I am trying to find some stable datum with "my" viewing (I know... good luck) and present time keeps coming up accurate. (for right now)

Next..you are now faced with an enigma we in the military program had to face on numerous occasions. You seem to have slipped a bit intothe future and seen something distressing...If you do nothing, it will happen...if you do something to affect the future..........

I know, I know and now a million questions come into play...To tell or not to tell...well follow your instincts I say, (as I am not a profesional RVer). So the person has their lifes agenda planned out and is it for you to go in and alter this plan? or is it within the plan for you to go in and alter it?

such as ask the guy if he has had an EKG recently you may well modify the future in his favor or maybe not in his favor...We often saw "things" in the future affecting key personalities and we would notify the affected protective services...They took small steps to change the future and nothing happened...were we wrong in what we saw since it did not happen?

No..you know you were seeing the projected or prospective future agenda along that line or thread....We can deviate from the agenda..which is still within the agenda..... just like a heavy rope that starts to fray, with fibers going out in all directions.

The only way to prove it would be not to report it and then sit back and watch the person living the unaffected future...tough call...

Thanks for your time, Terri


Nancy,

If you would like an idea of what a possible future might be like if we all come out of the closet, and not only that, begin training those who are latent into operancy where mind powers such as far sensing, farspeech, redaction(healing)/coercion, creativity, PK , etc., I recommend Julian May's books on the Galactic Milieu. This is an extremely interesting and well thought out exploration of what this could be like...the good with the ill.They are hard to put down and they have a very strong resonance both to me and my husband...who knows...she may have been RVing a possible future...incidently...the story starts in the 1980's and encompases approximately the first hundred years after humanity began to evolve into operancy.

We have been away for 4 days and came home to 107 messages...probably 85 of them titled "fear of Psi". Julian May also explores this subject very well too, not only fear among those with these abilities, but fear of those who don't have them in a very credible fashion and the challenges inherent in having both groups unify as the numbers reach the level required for the "Planetary Mind" to come "on line" so to speak.

If your doctorate is in psychology, I think you will be fascinated by the new fields of" metapsychology' that she explores as well as the problems and challenges of dealing with this shift in human evolution.

Leveda


> I'm a slow typist! :-( Also, got the statistic wrong--I re-read the > e-mail, and it should have been 5/10, not 6/10. A few more minor typos,

OH Paul,

It's hard to worship on sinking ship. (Whatever the hell that's suppose to mean). Gob forgives you or at least is humored.

Rob


>I recommend Julian May's books on the Galactic Milieu....

Yesterday I posted a summary of a book I read years ago, on ArtBellTalk\CoastToCoast\RemoteViewing\Scientific...

(Currently it's msg. #24, but the URL is subject to change w/o notice.)

It may be of interest in connection with your post on Julian May.

When I first read this book it was simply a great story -- I understand now that a lot of "science fiction," even back in the '30's, may have been expressing inchoate presentiments of the authors.

Tom


I am interested in how people prepare themselves to remote view. Or, even if you find it necessary to do so. CRV'ers seem to talk about a "cool down" period, a term which sounds a little nebulous to me. (I'm not CRV trained)

Having only done 30 or so sessions, I'm pretty new to viewing. I was taught to do 15 to 20 minutes of meditative technique and was told this would increase my target contact. However, I have tried RV'ing with no preparative ritual whatsoever and find no correlation between doing these exercises and target contact. I can have a poor, excellent or middle of the road session after meditating (or not).

I know a couple of viewers who prepare themselves by listening to hemi-sync tapes.

What do you do, and how important to your viewing is it that you do that?

Rick S


Rick

Cool down, essentially mean clearing or attempting to clear the mind of pre-RV-session data that is not essentional to the methods of collecting info. via RV.

Most RVers that I've heard either relax, meditate, or listen to a hemi-sync tape. I believe that simply clearing the mind is all that is nessary, no matter which method you use.

Maybe some one can help clarify.

John


Hiya all

There been many requests for personal information pertaining to the development to RV skills.

I'll tell you my story.

I intent to train with Lyn within the next couple months. So I'm still a novice but I'm devoting my life to metaphysics, starting with RV.

I've found that directing my attention to the sublties of the moment, I tend to notice more. Including the relationships between thing even on a psychic level.

How long is a moment? A moment can last any where from a life time to .1 of a second. My practice has taken me to observing a moment in the most minute. Currently moments are about .2 of a second, at the smallest. I can pretty much observe my intellectual mind alter pure info as it comes in. I cannot observe as it is happining but about a second or so after the incident I observe the interaction. From this interaction/relationship I can pick pure information out, when I'm mentally collected.

I'm sure this progess will change and evolve into another collection technique.

Please send comments.

Thanks

John


>> As an old paratrooper - we had a standing rule (contrary to >popular belief)...if the soldier did not want to jump, we don't push we just >tell them jumping is not for them

Gene, you just can't say what you just said to a hyper-rational engineer who had a recent near-death experience and is, on the one hand, all starry-eyed about it and on the other, spooked and bugged and mystified. You also can't say so to another engineer who's been having pre-cognitive dreams and even some waking visions, some positive, some negative, some abouty himself, some about others, 30% of which are dead right, 70% are wrong, but he doesn't know which ones are gonna be which when they happen. Trying to sort out this problem is driving him starkers, and he's freaking *scared*!

-=D=-


Hi Dave;

What Gene said is not entirely true. I am also an old paratrooper and sometimes we did push them out the door. You might think we did this so they could experience the jump and they would not be afraid the next time. Actually we did it because we were mean.

IMHO (the world according to Liam) Engineers and other hard scientists are going to have a very hard time with RV. IMHO for them to accept it means that the world is a lot different then they have spent the whole life believing. This is not true with social scientists, old soldiers, superstitious irishmen, and native americans.

RV is definately not the way to resolve emotional problems, conflicts, or crisis. DM says in his book, he was emotionally unbalanced when he came to the unit, and his experience there drove him over the edge. In my time with the unit, DM would not have been recruited. This is not a flame at the higher power guiding the unit, it is just a statment of the way things were at a certain time.

I do not believe your engineer friends will find the answer to their problems here or through RV. We have no common reality of what RV is or why it works. We would be hard put to arrive at a definition of what RV is. In short there is not much here to satisfy a scientific mind. Progress is made and then we come up with a theory after the fact that fits what we have just learned.

I think your friends would be better off in a straight leg (non-jump) unit. But then maybe I am just being mean again.

May the Force be with you,

Liam

[Archive Note: "Liam," former U.S. Intell RV]


END ARCHIVE 21
SEPTEMBER 05 1997 TO SEPTEMBER 17 1997

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