firedocs archives

Public Viewer Email Group
Archive 023
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This is an archive file of the public Viewer [VWR] email list. This list is sponsored by the private Viewer Forum, hosted by Paradigm Systems and Design, and owned and operated by PJ Gaenir. It is dedicated to discussion of the practical aspects, theories and experience of formal psychic methodologies such as Controlled Remote Viewing, and independent efforts by the public interested in working under the formal RV protocol (the set of rules which define "remote viewing" as the term was coined in a science lab). You can find details, rules, and a form for joining the email group here. The list is moderated during operation and archiving. I remove last names and detail locations of contributors (within the archives) for privacy, and signatures for space conservation. I have added notes marking the posts from former U.S. intelligence remote viewers. Archiving of posts is done manually and may not include all posts.

This is the twenty-third archive.

NOTE: Archives 21-24 are... kind of messy. There was a massive volume of posts, many of which didn't make it to the archives because they were off-topic, humor, flames, etc.. (But, which may be what someone responded to in a post that did make it into the archives.) Due to the message volume and response time, you may even read something that responds to messages you've never seen but which might appear a couple of archives later. (I even found one beautiful and impossible example where someone's reply to a question was quoted as the inspiration for the post that asked the original question that got the reply. I'm so confused... really, we were in the twilight zone... ) And on top of all that, the majordomo was acting up so a few things just got outright lost. So if the linear process of these archives seems to be a bit fuzzy.... bear with us. -- PJ


SEPTEMBER 05 1997 TO SEPTEMBER 17 1997
"FEAR OF PSI" THREAD, ARCHIVE 1 OF 2 ON THAT THREAD
BEGIN ARCHIVE 23

Joe/Gene/Liam/Paul/Lyn/Greg (and any others with ideas),

It seems to me that the thing I encounter most commonly in people I talk with about RV is that infamous "fear of psi." Even the most well thought out and even metaphysically experienced people often have a major dose of this. It seems more serious when I consider that usually the stronger someone's inherent abilities are, the stronger their fear is, as a sort of by-product of experience and awareness. I don't mean other people fearing Viewers. I mean new Viewers fearing that part of themselves.

We all know that you have to crash a few belief systems to make this possible, generally. That's easy to agree with on paper and quite inspirational in theory. But realistically, what are the kinds of things a person can DO to begin to dissolve those paradigms or fears? Are there any certain exercises or meditations that have helped you work through some of that? I `mean other than just RV sessions... practice is a given. Ideas?

PJ


>>>It seems to me that the thing I encounter most commonly in people I talk with about RV is that infamous "fear of psi." Even the most well thought out and even metaphysically experienced people often have a major dose of this.<<<

[snip]

You are correct. And, if you think Rv'er's might have a fear button, you should see the one that comes with some of the other players.

>>>We all know that you have to crash a few belief systems to make this possible, generally. That's easy to agree with on paper and quite inspirational in theory. But realistically, what are the kinds of things a person can DO to begin to dissolve those paradigms or fears? Are there any certain exercises or meditations that have helped you work through some of that? I mean other than just RV sessions... practice is a given. Ideas?<<<

There are some fears that people can't overcome. I know of a number of people over the years who have tried training (learning) RV, who did very well up to a certain point. But they were unable to overcome a specific internalized fear (that is--fear of changing a specific belief concept). It actually made them ill physically. When they decided not to pursue the training any longer, they miraculously returned to good health. There are some things (beliefs) that are so strong in some people they shouldn't try to change them. The psyche will do almost anything to protect us from certain changes.

Warm regards,

Joe

[Archive Note: Joseph McMoneagle, former U.S. Intell RV]


>>It seems to me that the thing I encounter most commonly in people I talk with about RV is that infamous "fear of psi."

I think it's a fear of power, and a fear of confronting "the truth." We spend so much of our lives pretending that people say what they mean, that people *are* what they try to project themselves as being. Ultimately it means seeing some truths about our lives (individually and collectively) and about our current circumstances on this world. To open the door to psi is to open the door to a lot of messy truths. That takes a special breed of courage, because it means bucking the entire system.

(And the folks you are *seeing* and the games you are seeing through and the consensus beliefs you are blowing away -- you won't exactly be thanked for your efforts. There is tremendous peer pressure to *not* see beyond the superficial. In some quarters it's even considered demonic!)

It's not fear of experiencing the psychic phenomena themselves...it's the rest of the baggage that comes with the territory.

Skye


>>>(And the folks you are *seeing* and the games you are seeing through and the consensus beliefs you are blowing away -- you won't exactly be thanked for your efforts. There is tremendous peer pressure to *not* see beyond the superficial. In some quarters it's even considered demonic!)<<<

Oooooo. Yummmm! What a delicious topic!! Dynamite! And, PJ, you opened the door to it, though it's my impression that, strictly speaking, it doesn't belong here. . .or. . .??

I want to reply and join issues and exchange here, but won't unless I hear from you, PJ, that you're not gonna ask us to move this discourse out of this list. I don't have time to search out and gird up technologically and computerish-ly and steep-learning-curvedly join it elsewhere.

-=d=-


>>>Oooooo. Yummmm! What a delicious topic!! Dynamite! And, PJ, you opened the door to it, though it's my impression that, strictly speaking, it doesn't belong here. . .or. . .??<<<

Well it's about bloody time something tempted you back to corresponding in my camp D! 'Fear of Psi' is a very real and very serious issue that to varying degrees, nearly all people learning RV go through -- whether they're doing it on their own, via intuitive methods, or via some formalized structure. If one can't resolve the psychology, one can't master the skill. I've corresponded with a LOT of people the last two years about this subject, and the whole fear of change, fear of psi, et al. is a major (though usually unrecognized) theme. Some hide it in religious or metaphysical beliefs, or cloak it in any number of things, but it's recognizeable anyway. So, I think that definitely relates to the 'theory and hands-on' remote viewing topic of the list. Although I avoid specific NON-RV psychic stuff, I don't avoid psychic discussion that ALSO applies to RV, if that makes sense.... feel welcome to jump in. I've missed you. It's thanks to YOU I'm in the middle of RV stuff!

PJ


<<<We all know that you have to crash a few belief systems to make this possible, generally. That's easy to agree with on paper and quite inspirational in theory. But realistically, what are the kinds of things a person can DO to begin to dissolve those paradigms or fears? Are there any certain exercises or meditations that have helped you work through some of that? I mean other than just RV sessions... practice is a given. Ideas?>>>

I don't know about any exercises to dissolve those paradigms or fears, but I think that steadily working with our abilities is probably one of the only ways to come to terms with the vast potential that lies within us. Maybe a good route is to move to subjects aside from RV and explore our potentials.. It is only after we have some kind of an idea as to our own strengths, weaknesses, limits, abilites, etc. that the mystique begins to wear off a bit and we begin to trust ourselves, experiences, intuitions, etc. Know thyself..... Maybe another way to do it is to do what we are all doing here.... which is to associate with folks that have similar inclinations, experiences and ability. Seeing others doing the things that we ourselves can do or are doing kind of erases the fear and mystique, especially when you see most of those others coming out of it without getting too damaged. Kind of gives us all some support to fall back on if we do feel like maybe we have gone out there a bit too far. A good example of that is how PJ helped me out one day after I had a horrendous experience with a target, and scared the dickens out of myself. ((Thanks PJ)) We learn by doing... We trust by experiencing... We love by trusting.... Hence when we do all of the above, we love ourselves a bit more... and fear our nature a bit less.

Sarah


<<<It's not fear of experiencing the psychic phenomena themselves...it's the rest of the baggage that comes with the territory.>>>

Yeah tell me about it Skye.... It is really hard to bite your tongue sometimes when you can so easily read people... It is even harder yet to keep from getting cynical as you realize just how many games people play. The funny part is people often don't even realize that they are playing a game... they do a lot of subconscious stuff... behaviors that are so ingrained that they don't even think about them anymore. The biggest challenge for me is keeping myself from becoming antisocial. You kinda just have to take it with a grain of salt and learn to think before you speak, steel yourself against jumping at people's throats becuase they can't see the big picture, and are so hidebound to their traditional dogmas and westernized propaganda. It can be frustrating. (( to say the least!!!!)) Anyway, that and the fact that a lot of people think that you are nuts for believing in or getting involved with this stuff... are a couple of the major pitfalls. Personally... I feel like if people can't cope with it or accept me for who I am in my beliefs/ practices, as I try to do with theirs, I probably don't need them in my life.

Sarah


PJ: I am not really keen to the phrase "crash belief systems" but I understand what it means...Actually I believe it is not so much necessary to crash belief systems as it is necessary to alter the perception of those belief systems. If there are any current or former parachutist out there consider this... At no time during the over 1,000 jumps that I made on active duty did ever get the impression I was falling. The mind just won't accept the concept that a perfectly healthy person would throw themselves out of an airplane in flight so the mind adjusts its perception - doesn't trash its belief - it just adjusts its belief...What occurs is a sensation (really very nice incidentally) where the mind convinces itself that the body has leaped out of the plane and has become frozen in space...look down however and you will notice the ground rushing up (repeat "UP") to meet you...You are not falling...the ground is rising... Now this happens with a very conscious and very awake person each time they jump..dope rope (static line) or freefall... "Belief readjustment"...

When a new viewer enters the realm, it is most certainly necessary to address former beliefs but it is important these beliefs be altered to conform to what happens in RV as opposed to being discounted. It's a tough job and my heart goes out to people who attempt to teach this art to novices...Probably the most important thing that has to occur is to convince the new Viewer that what is happening is not abnormal but rather a channeling of perfectly normal skills we all have to some degree. Lots of people have been doing it for lots of years. Gen-X'rs and us old baby boomers feel the need to add new titles and to try to codify the art but in fact earliest non and neo-Judaic/Christian cultures knew of its existence from Delphi Oracles to Joan's of Arc...Shamans who could see the future or read the distances were highly worshipped and respected.

I personally believe this skill was probably one of the factors which gave the "naked ape" the ability to survive in a vicious hungry world. Just imagine how handy it must have been to be able to "see" what was around the corner or in the cave before you committed your family or small clan to enter. We all have this limbic survival capacity still hidden away..try it on your own if you do not believe me. Stare at a significant other who is sleeping soundly. I mean really stare hard. Watch them become uneasy and begin to toss and turn and eventually waken. Stare at your sleeping pets and it happens even quicker...they are a little closer to the jungle than we are now...The Viewer needs to understand that there is nothing to fear about early RV training except the occasional bouts of confusion and disappointment but soon the fun takes over ... Those who read these columns regularly know that I "played around" with RV on my own and suffered a tragic view of an image I will always regret but now I no longer "play alone".. I always latch onto a controller - even if by computer incidentally, and maintain that anchor...no "free fall viewing..."

Its fun and I wish all new Viewers the same sense of wonderment and fulfillment that I have learned over the years...

Love the questions...sorry for the long winded Irish answers...BTW we Irish have a colorful history of shamans, ogres, leprachauns, fairies and gremlins, warrior kings and ancient god kings who used RV as their major tool of power....Just ask Liam...

Gene

[Archive Note: Gene "Kincaid," former U.S. Intell RV]


>>>But realistically, what are the kinds of things a person can DO to begin to dissolve those paradigms or fears? Are there any certain exercises or meditations that have helped you work through some of that? I mean other than just RV sessions... practice is a given. Ideas? <<<

Two things have happened which have been somewhat helpful for me. The first is that I began to _really notice_ and try to tune into small everyday events that might be labelled "psychic" or "pre-cognitive" or simply "hunches" or gut feelings. In the past I would simply dismiss them and move on. Now I tend to roll them around in my mind -- at times, savour them. I believe its in Mind Trek where it is recommended that we actually keep a journal of these events/awarenesses. Well, being lazy, I simply make myself be better aware of them. This helps me broaden my perspective on Psi and realize what an everyday part of life it is, if only we would take a moment to notice it when it does occur.

The other day, I was mulling over my less than sparkling psi ability. "Who am I kidding? I don't really have much ability in this field." (Yeah, one of those days :<) ) As soon as I thought this, the phone rang. On my way to answer it I said to my wife, "It's your mother." Her mother rarely phones. Well, ...... it _was_ her mother. A little humourous reminder of the reality of psi which came from somewhere or other.

The second thing which has helped me take the spook out of this stuff is through talking with others who have no problem with it. My best friend is Native Canadian and comes from a long line of healers. I have another Native Canadian friend who is an elder and a well known healer. I share with them what I'm doing and they sometimes talk about this stuff from their very different world view, using different words, but naming the same reality. At times they twinkle affectionately as they see this excited puppy learning to simply wobble on new legs. It's REALLY nice and important to be able to share the natural questioning that goes with this turf with somebody who's been there.

Rick S


Okay!

PJ sez this subject's on topic and invited me to blather, so I'll open up both barrels (so you can all shoot all the fish in the pair of them.)

I've got several guesses about this subject. Some come from personal experience, some from working with people as a therapist, some from much experience with serious use of psychoactive compounds as therapeutic tools both with myself and others. As you can imagine, the latter experience touches right into the heart of this present bizness <g>

First, it's gotta be noted that "fear of psi" is just one symptom among many. It's almost never a stand-alone, nor is it usually just "psi" alone that forms icicles in the bellies of those mucking about beyond the usual boundary lines. Often, anything unusual, even a roller-coaster ride, will scare the squat out of such people. Just gentle, random, unpredictable motion will also do it -- they'll often be very quickly carsick or seasick. Some of them are strongly xenophobic, too, as well as presenting serious evidence of having had early humorectomies. Many of these are True Believer new agers (*not* just the fundies from the American Southland) as well, with permanent smiles lacquered onto their faces and in possession of lots of highly conclusive dogma about things no one can *possibly* be conclusive about.

Where I'm obviously going here is that we're dealing with Character, not just some matter of "opinion" or "cognitive dissonance" or "political incorrectness" that oughta yield to liberal applications of corrective facts and rhetoric and drawing pictures upside down with your left hand. Nay, nay, good friends. I speak here of "character" not as the DSM-IV has it -- the "disorder" bizness -- but rather as Wilhelm Reich meant it. The stuff that's *rewarded* in this culture. "Like a Rock!!" The stuff the Army builds (except, of course, for those in that now defunct [uh huh, sure] weird unit in Ft. Meade. . .<gd&r>

The stuff Reich identified as the pathogen responsible for what he correctly identified as "The Emotional Plague". The stuff responsible for so many men admiring and emulating "The Duke" in both word and deed. (FYI, even the mainstream shrinks have identified this one. It's called alexithymia, or, for short, "the John Wayne syndrome" -- The guy can't feel *any* of his internal, emotional experience. You ask him how he's feeling: Your question is meaningless to him, so he replies, "Waal, it's a nice enough day, doncha think, Pilgrim?")

{Note: Above I've only barely sketched in just two styles in which this Plague manifests: The very stiff and frightened kind and the maximum-bravado (also very stiff) kind. There are other styles and mixes, of course, but my point is to show the loss of feeling and flexibility and range-of-motion in all of these styles.}

What's your guess about how such a human's going to respond if we RV-types show him conclusively, experientially, that The Boundaries -- The Only Ones There *Really* Are -- are malleable in the extreme, soluble in. . .well. . .soluble in not a whole hell of a lot more than sheer "thought"!!?? You think he's not gonna tell us right away about how Carl Sagan says all this stuff is hooey? And point to Carl's latest, John Wayne-style, arm-waving dismissal of UFOs as "mass hysteria" as *proof* that There Is Nothing Out Of The Ordinary Anywhere And That's Final!! You bet he is!!

Folks: We're dealing here with the group whom John Mack has correctly called the "ontological totalitarians". These men/women are "cases", when viewed from a broader perspective. A perspective it takes only a second to assume: I mean, just let's be logical/sensible for only a moment here: How could it *possibly* be that *only* WE and our narrow, 3-DTicktock, scientized picture- -of-what's-ultimate are in possession, finally, of The Right Answer? To press upon us the certainty that these gentlemen -- Sagan, Philip Klass, some members of the FMSF, the Amazing Randi, CSICOP in general -- are in possession of the final "T"ruth. . .This is ludicrous *prima facie*!! Yet this is what they'd have us swallow.

But before I go too far with the jokes and get accused of making sport of and/or trivializing these victims of their conditioning, let me back up a big step:

What is it makes these John Waynes and Daughters of the American Revolution hang so tough on their narrow-band cosmologies? Can I just name-call them with impunity as I just did? I don't think so.

To do this issue, Reich and Grof, Leary and others justice, I must ask how they could have gotten like that. Is it as simple as *just* "conditioning"? On the face of it, that can't be right and is tautological. It begs the question of what prompts us to *continue* to condition ourselves, each other, our kids to such a bleak and insular world-view even when we live in comfort and plenty and might be able to relax the rigid, 3-Dticktock boundaries just a little?

A partial answer is that we're looking at *Plague* victims (in the mirror, too, folks; we're all infected to one degree or another!). That's why Reich used that term. The problem is only held in place by continued reinforcement and "conditioning"; it's root is in one or more imprints. Recall here Konrad Lorenz with his ducklings and the ping-pong ball. This term and the understanding of our psychological make-up that it implies discomfits most of mainstream shrinkage mightily. It points to our fundamental helplessness in the face of early, sometimes pre-natal, traumas and our "knee-jerk" reactions to them. (There are positive imprints, too, of course; the duckling usually gets momma duck to lock onto, but in the interest of economy in this context, I'll focus only on the negative ones.) It means there are one-time learning occasions so powerful that they lay down what seems to be "hard-wiring" in our emotional "equipment". A few illustrations of the kind that can create a serious case of "psi fear" may help:

~~~A young British woman in England during the Blitz in WWII finds that she is pregnant. Her husband is a soldier and has gone to war. Their relationship was on the rocks anyway, and he'll probably not return for any of a variety of reasons, not the least of which is death in combat. She determines that to bring a child into the world would be the worst thing she could do both to the child and herself. Abortion is not an option. For many days she spends hours standing on the edge of a cliff overlooking the sea, trying hard to screw up the courage to throw herself off it to her death. She can never quite do it, and the girl child is later born. Surprisingly, the father does return after the war, and life -- full of further traumas, to be sure, for the girl-child -- goes on. Cut to 37 years later, the girl-child in a high-dose, therapeutic LSD session; in a blindfold, stereo earpones playing powerfully evocative music, with a "sitter" taking care of all her needs during the trip. It is about the third hour in. Girl-child says in a low, half-choked, shuddering voice, "It's. . .not. . .very. . .friendly. . .in. . .here. . ." And then begins alternating massive sobbing, raging, and discovering further details about where "here" is. It's inside her mother's womb while she's on that cliff. Girl-child has had to scrabble and fight hard for bare existence starting *then*; has had to separate her existence from her mother's since well before she was born and while she was completely, bio-chemically -- and thus emotionally -- one with her mother. BTW, it doesn't matter a whit whether this story is factually true or whether foetuses can "really" remember the intra-uterine experience. Girl-child had this experience/memory/what-you-will firmly soldered into her circuitry and had been living in a world she percieved as about to do her in at any moment ever since. The mother did confirm the suicide wishes and standing on the cliff. (Incidentally, girl-child at 37 was a high-functioning woman, not a "patient" anywhere. The acid trip was one of a series she undertook voluntarily.) Now, without my going into much detail, you can imagine how girl-child might have responded to any subtle suggestions or spontaneous experience of personal boundary dissolution of *any* kind. "Unfriendly" to such things would be to put it mildly. And, importantly, without knowing why she felt that way and even being able to see *intellectually* that her fear was unfounded.

~~~Now consider the small child who's had many unusual experiences: playmates his parents can't see, night visits from "the little doctors", visions of the Virgin Mary, and/or many other kinds. And this kid is cruelly punished and rejected when very young for even so much as *mentioning* these events.

~~~A somewhat subtler but just as damaging scenario is the little boy-child who bonds deeply with his mom. The pregnancy was wanted; he's been loved and nurtured; the mom encourages everything "magical" about the child, all his imaginal life is rewarded and the telepathic link between them is enjoyed, even played with. The dad isn't into these understandings and experiences, but doesn't interfere or disparage them. The mom is killed in an accident when boy-child is four. He's now alone with all his "psi" stuff. It's not difficult to see how he later comes to associate any openings or suggestions of openings into more "psi" experiences as preambles to disaster and wants nothing whatever to do with them. . .again, very likely without having a clue of why he feels such fear.

*************************************

This is longer than I meant it to be. Sorry if it's too much; I've found it hard to be brief about this, since most educated people have little or no awareness of the power -- sometimes even the *existence* -- of imprinting in human psychology. They think it's just ducks that do it. I could write at even greater length (omigod!) about helping people recognize and dissolve negative imprints, etc. And about the utter uselessness of blaming and excoriating such folks as "bigots" or worse -- kinda like trashing a 'Nam vet for diving under a table in his living room if some smart ass shouts, "INCOMING!" But I better get outta here before you guys chase me off the email list for having been imprinted with excessive verbosity.

-=d=-


Hi David,

Whew! I was talking about a -- um -- different level of 'fear of psi,' but you went right to the heart of it.

I think the point about people in our culture being carriers of contrary belief systems (as if it's a contagious virus that goes throughout one) is very valid. Although I think this is not limited to the polarized "debunker" or "closed" version of people that you (and then Skye's forward) talked about.

My own comment was based on the idea that people can have any open minded intelligent stance around, and still demonstrate a fear of psi, and/or of the fundamental changes that might be necessary to really accept it. Not just intellectually, but personally -- very internally, not surface or obvious beliefs.

I consider debunkers lost causes -- you the therapist of course see how they can be saved. The way I see it, a good number of the people even involved in seemingly open-minded studies such as RV still have quite a distance to go between "intellectual acceptance and interest" and "fundamental personal change that allows _internal_ acceptance and usage of psi to take place."

A good example of this is parapsychology studies themselves. Plenty of "believer" subjects participated and demonstrated psi-missing -- they actually did _worse_ than chance rather than better. For all their conscious agreement and enthusiasm and stated open mindedness, they weren't comfortable with demonstrating psi -- so having been trained by our school system into "the worse you score on a test, the worse you do," they responded by scoring very badly -- which is to say, unbeknownst to them, very well on the psi-effect scale. ;-)

Or, as others have pointed out, there's parapsychologists themselves, scientists who are at the least open minded (if they're willing to usually half-starve to be part of the parapsychology field <g>), trying to find psi; and if they get "a little bit" of an effect, they're good with that -- if they get anything over the standard non-threatening accepted amount though -- like a BIG effect -- they're uncomfortable with it, and often even parapsychologists are sure gross error or fraud had to be in there somewhere. (Which is odd, since they don't generally assume this if a trial shows NO effect size.)

I think there is a level of RV ability that a lot of people don't move past because for all their intellectual acceptance and willingness to deal with small effects, they haven't really gone through the internal changes necessary for full acceptance of this; in short, it's just a "head-game."

After a few years of involvement in a lot of online communication with those in the UFOlogy and "New Age" fields, I'm concluding that this is actually very common. As a culture, or at least a subset of it, our minds are finally opening to this stuff. But INTERNALLY, haven't worked it through. The majority of people who are "true believers" are actually in this category I think -- because a true, internal, fundamental shift of belief system woiuld have opened them up to a huge world of things, so the single-focus "right" belief, whether it's found in debunkers, fundies or metaphysicists, is still a symptom of the same issue.

>>The stuff the Army builds (except, of course, for those in that now defunct [uh huh, sure] weird unit in Ft. Meade. . .<gd&r>

I should tell the intell guys, in Compuserve-ese that means <grinning, ducking and running!>

>>It means there are one-time learning occasions so powerful that they lay down what seems to be "hard-wiring" in our emotional "equipment".

I think this is true -- and in every life, probably more than one, and probably not remembered, regardless of "when" they occurred. For instance, many psi impressions are of negative things and futures, just due to (a) the emotional impact of those, (b) the probability that psi is heavily tied to survival, and (c) the negative focus our culture provides, which 'tunes' us to some probabilities more than others. Few people are given to wanting to re-experience bad feelings, particularly children. So, I think much of psi acceptance "internally" -- not consciously, but on very deep internal levels -- is blocked as a result of the many small but frightening experiences which may happen throughout any person's life.

>>Sorry if it's too much; I've found it hard to be brief about this, since most educated people have little or no awareness of the power -- sometimes even the *existence*-- of imprinting in human psychology. They think it's just ducks that do it.

I had an insight just prior to having my baby that this WAS real for humans... I guess imprinting is a good word for it. I think it can happen at any point in life, though I'm sure the earlier, the more chance it has of happening, and the more profound it probably is.

>>I could write at even greater length (omigod!) about helping people recognize and dissolve negative imprints, etc.

Uh huh. I volunteer to be a lab rat for almost anything. I can even well document the experience from that point of view. (But I'd prob'ly have ta go down there and give you all my money, huh. ;-)

PJ


>>>A partial answer is that we're looking at *Plague* victims (in the mirror, too, folks; we're all infected to one degree or another!). That's why Reich used that term. The problem is only held in place by continued reinforcement and "conditioning"; it's root is in one or more imprints.

Well put, and not half as long as it could be. "Constant readers" interested in this aspect of our common situation may find much of interest in Joseph Chilton Pearce's "Evolution's End." (ISBN: 006250732X). Quite inexpensive from amazon.com. (No I don't get a commission.) He's writing about how children develop in our culture, versus their potential for development.

Tom


Geez, "D," you like to talk even more than I do. Just a few comments:

>Many of these are True Believer >new agers (*not* just the fundies from the American Southland)

The True Believer New Agers...I've even considered developing a talk on this subject, "The 10 Most Dangerous Ideas Within the New Age Movement." The danger being that it's the same 'ol-same 'ol, gussied up in new rhetoric. The same fear is present in the New Agers as in the Fundamentalists, because there's really very little difference between them.

To frame this in RV terms, human beings have a bitch of a time dealing with the unknown. We have to feel in control; we have to identify and define our relationship to every little event. That's the proper role of philosophy, but most often our philosophies (which are all astoundingly similar, I'd say) are one-note tunes. Unless we change the most fundamental assumptions inherent in these philosophies, we're going to continue to play out the same scenarios ad nauseum. (History doesn't *need* to repeat itself, and the fact that it so often does is a reflection of how little we've progressed in our approach and core beliefs.)

>>Is it as simple as *just* "conditioning"? On the face of it, that can't be right and is tautological. It begs the question of what prompts us to *continue* to condition ourselves, each other,

Because I think there is "conditioning" and "imprinting" on the planetary/mass consciousness scale. We are a race with no memory of its history, and so it's difficult to conduct "therapy" on ourselves. And yet many of the puzzle-pieces reside within those old experiences. I think part of the fear comes from an absolute terror of opening doors to broader expressions of our consciousness because this may (probably will) open doors to those lost/repressed memories. We may not be quite what we have assumed we are.

And surely part of this process is the need to define meaning and direction for ourselves as a race. I think we are, at this stage of our planetary development, about equated with a teenager about to leave high school. But we are clueless about what we want to do with our collective life. We are so used to being told what we are, what our capabilities are (and are not), and we are not exactly racing to address these issues.

And this is where the effect of religion comes in. Religion as we have developed it, as it has evolved in our own perceptions (and not necessarily as it was intended by those who originally seeded those philosophies here), has become the single greatest stubbling block to our development. Religion has defined our place in things within a very narrow range. Most of the world's religions have taught that it is inherently evil and dangerous to stray beyond the boundaries of that very narrow territory and the politicians and those that would benefit financially from our ignorance, they have subtly reinforced those beliefs (watch the local news sometime and tell me the main idea being "sold" is that it's unsafe to even leave your home). It's an idea that we are being "sold" and it is also an accurate reflection of our already existing beliefs.

BEYOND THIS POINT, THERE BE DRAGONS! (And demons.)

Not that we haven't contributed to this process. We've been promised a lot in exchange for our compliance...safety, salvation even.

While it might be understandable to teach young children not to stray beyond the safety of their yards by telling scary stories (actually this would not be my first choice for child rearing tech, but...), those stories become counter-productive in the adolescent and early adulthood years. And I suspect that the dragons "out there" are far less dangerous than the internalized dragons that we clutch to so desperately.

>>our emotional "equipment".

The left brain part of us is logical, it takes information and draws conclusions. It is, I suppose, a closed system in that sense. The right brain is our gateway to "the other," and is what prevents us from operating within a closed system. (One could argue that the development of workable free energy devices, the ultimate expression of the openness of the total universal system, or even the conception of infinite power, could only follow similar ideas appearing within our consciousness. If so, the human race is indeed showing signs of life!)

Emotion or feeling-information is also a great communicator of "the truth." We've been taught to only intake information from the overt, spoken/superficially acted elements of our experience. But our feelings (including psi) will often tell us what is really going on. This is indeed a very dangerous thing for those who don't want to be observed that closely. And I think it's fair to say that *none of us* want to be observed that closely...we don't want to observe ourselves that closely, because that will necessitate major restructing and change.

> >~~~Now consider the small child who's had many unusual experiences: >playmates his parents can't see, night visits from "the little doctors", >visions of the Virgin Mary, and/or many other kinds. And this kid is cruelly >punished and rejected when very young for even so much as *mentioning* these >events.

The smart kids learn early-on to never talk about these things. That was my strategy...<g> Course, the downside of this is that I never found out how many others were having similar experiences, that they are actually very common.

Interestingly, though, I have heard stories of the kids themselves getting together and discussing what they've seen and experience. And they've seen and experienced plenty. What do you think this dynamic has done for the credibility of adults? For the credibility of any of what the children have been told? (On the plus side, this dynamic may make it easier for the kids to break away from the status quo. They're learning, very early on, that it's largely BS.)

>since most educated people have little or no >awareness of the power -- sometimes even the *existence* -- of imprinting in >human psychology.

The question, to me, is: What is the history of the human race and what collective experiences were "imprinted" and lie buried within us? I suspect that those dynamics are what is primarily driving human action. We are each, individually, acting out the collective scenarios...over and over...over and over...

I'm tired of it. There are a lot better places than this! <g>

Skye


>>I consider debunkers lost causes -- you the therapist of course see how they can be saved. <

Yep. 500mcg and a blindfold, etc. (as I outlined before). As in: There are no atheists in foxholes. (Which kinda makes war a simulacrum for deep, spiritual, ego-dissolving experience, doesn't it? Gotta do *some*thing to restore that Deeper Connection we lost as kids, eh? Even if it kills us. Alexithymia is a terminal disorder. Acid and other psychoactives do a much better and more thorough job without the catastrophic consequences. That's why they're illegal.)

>(But I'd prob'ly have ta go down there and give you all my money, huh. ;-)<

Naaaah! Just a few quarters to stuff in the psychedelic juke-box to ring up a little Scriabin, maybe some gut-busting Prokofiev, a cut of Balinese Gamelin (sic) music or the monkey-chatter guys. . .Y'know: Music to Change Your Mind With.

-=d=-


I've been refraining from comment to avoid irritating those whose browsers receive my messages in code... but I just HAVE to comment on all the remarks about "Fear of Psi" relating to Christians and the implications made about fanatics who murder people. I agree with Rusty that tolerance is so important. I am an RV'er and a Christian. So is Lyn Buchanan; quite a staunch one at that. I'm glad Gene clarified that we must readjust our belief systems rather than crash them. I have had psi events occurring all my life, and the understanding that the ability to RV is an inherent, God-given gift is why my "belief system" allows me to do it, I guess. I deal with fear, yes. Mostly because I believe that true reality is based in a spiritual realm where good and evil definitely exist, and my conscious mind does not want to relinquish control for fear that somehow, evil may come of it. That may sound fanatical, but that is what I deal with. I would like to add that, as a Christian, I do not believe that all RV'ers are "New Agers" or that all "New Agers" are worshippers of Satan. Neither should anyone believe that very many Christians exist who are murderous fanatics.

Lori


>I think part of the fear comes from an absolute terror of opening doors to broader expressions of our consciousness because this may (probably will) open doors to those lost/repressed memories. We may not be quite what we have assumed we are.<

Yep, kiss Darwin g'bye, matey. Say hello to Zecharia Sitchin and one of the few decent explanations of how it is that we're *designed* to repress painful memory (i.e., forget it and forget we forgot it, but it's still there and festers and messes up our lives unless we retrieve it. . .which is damn hard to do since we're designed *not* to. Gaaaak! A slightly buggered piece of genetic engineering, eh? To put it mildly. No other animal does that.)

I can only guess that you're familiar with Sitchin and the Nefilim, etc., Skye, given your suggestion above. If yes, maybe you'd like to run the precis for the assembled company. I'm short of time. I know that stuff's relevant to the "fear of psi" issue.

>I think we are, at this stage of our planetary development, about equated with a teenager about to leave high school.<

Boy, I wish I thought we were that far along. To me it looks more like we're just barely pubescent and undergoing some of the zooms and crashes that accompany all them "raging hormones", Pilgrim. (Doncha just love that expression!!?? One of the more genteel ways of doing what the Jewish mother does traditionally to the daughter who just discovered she's menstruating for the first time: Slaps her in the face.)

>The question, to me, is: What is the history of the human race and what collective experiences were "imprinted" and lie buried within us? I suspect that those dynamics are what is primarily driving human action. We are each, individually, acting out the collective scenarios...over and over...over and over...<

Which brings up another psychological issue that I didn't address in the prior post about imprinting:

RV, and the ease with which its rudiments can be taught successfully to almost *anyone*, points at the strong possibility that the whole species has immense telepathic capability. . .A very dangerous potential indeed, for "consider the catastrophe in the John Wayne-revering USA if all the men woke up tomorrow morning with the reliable ability to access telepathically the full array of unstated emotional material in anyone they were looking at. This is the stuff Steve Martin or Jim Carrey comedy films are made of. But the fun would end quickly the instant one ice-box of a middle-management guy felt the bruising impact of his wife's pent-up resentment about ten years of being in his unfeeling presence." [In quotes, because this is from the page on our web site <www.wclynx.com/bus/newbeing/> titled, "Our Yardsticks for a Human Evolutionary Jump". Some of you may have already seen it.]

Any species of serious repressers, as we are, can't risk knowing all the truth about each other. If we did, we'd tear our social structure apart from within even more violently and quickly than we do now. And any individuals in Western culture who've retained into adulthood the dubious blessing of strong emotional telepathic capability -- or its close cousin, paranormal healing ability -- learns there are often life-threatening risks associated. Best job ever done on this one was by Ellen Burstyn in the film *Resurrection*. *Anyone* mucking about with RV *must* rent that video and watch closely! It teaches respect.

. . .acting out the collective scenarios...over and over...over and over... I'm tired of it. There are a lot better places than this! <g><

No doubt. But we couldn't handle being there. Our psyches'd come apart like the two-dollar watches that they, in fact, are. <BGs at ya, Skye. . don't de-materialize into the universe next door yet, the party's just warmin' up. . .Scotty. . .SCOTTY!! Turn that damn thing OFF!!. . .Okay, gang: Phasers on stun.">

-=d=-


> "Constant readers" interested in this aspect of our common situation may find much of interest in Joseph Chilton Pearce's "Evolution's End." (ISBN: 006250732X). <

Yep. Most of Joe Pearce's stuff about kids is excellent. *The Magical Child*, *The Magical Child Matures* (maybe not the exact title), are also super and in some places detail painfully how we cruelly cut kids to fit the "norm", whether that norm be the Religious Reich or Scientistic Fundamentalism.

Even harsher is Alice Miller. Better feel good before sitting down with one of her books, 'cause you're gonna want a hug *real* bad after about two chapters. And she's bloody well *right*, too! *The War against Children* (psychiatrist Peter Breggin's title) is definitely not pretty.

-=d=-


> I can only guess that you're familiar with Sitchin and the Nefilim, etc., > Skye, given your suggestion above. If yes, maybe you'd like to run the > precis for the assembled company. I'm short of time. I know that stuff's > relevant to the "fear of psi" issue.

Yup, Sitchin explains the beginnings, but IMO, Velikovsky's "Mankind in Amnesia" better explains our current fears.

-- Dean --


>I can only guess that you're familiar with Sitchin and the Nefilim, etc., >Skye, given your suggestion above. If yes, maybe you'd like to run the >precis for the assembled company. I'm short of time. I know that stuff's >relevant to the "fear of psi" issue.

It's fairly off-topic and besides, I just ran "the short version" through in my imagination to see how it would play to this audience and it was at least two pages long, and that doesn't even include my real life conversations with "folks" that amplify on these themes.

Anyone who wants to discuss "alternative human history" can email me directly.

>RV, and the ease with which its rudiments can be taught successfully to >almost *anyone*, points at the strong possibility that the whole species has >immense telepathic capability. . .

No question about it. And telepathy seems to be the "universal language" spoken not only by a wide variety of sentient life forms, but also plants (and perhaps even inorganics for all I know.)

I had a plant firmly reprimand me once! I'd promised to repot one of my houseplants, actually said it out loud and everything and then promptly forgot. The next morning, while making coffee, I got an audible voice-in-the-head "Skye, you promised!" It took me a second to figure out who was talking to me and what I'd promised to them. When I remembered, I was very embarrassed. It's really tacky and unfeeling to lie to your houseplants, doncha think?

A very dangerous potential indeed, for >"consider the catastrophe in the John Wayne-revering USA if all the men woke >up tomorrow morning with the reliable ability to access telepathically the >full array of unstated emotional material in anyone they were looking at.

You really have it in for John Wayne, don't you? Fortunately there seems to be some natural governors on the system and people don't tend to advance any more quickly than they can handle. (And most don't advance much at all.)

>Any species of serious repressers, as we are, can't risk knowing all the >truth about each other. If we did, we'd tear our social structure apart >from within even more violently and quickly than we do now.

The thing is -- and I've experienced sudden awareness of previously unknown aspects of my personal experience, so I know whereof I speak -- when you do become aware, it's more like you've always known it. Unless you let yourself get caught up in drama-creating scenarios at the point of recognition, it actually can go very smoothly. (I realize this is a minority opinion, but for the sake of our planetary development, you'd better hope I'm right!)

> > >I'm tired of it. There are a lot better places than this! <g>
No doubt. But we couldn't handle being there. Our psyches'd come apart like >the two-dollar watches that they, in fact, are. <BGs at ya, Skye. . don't >de-materialize into the universe next door yet, the party's just warmin' up.

I have, in fact, dematerialized into other universes, but I keep coming back! Damn! Must be that my "greater consciousness" thinks I have a place here. Although what it is exactly has been somewhat unclear to me, much of my many years. <g>

Skye


Hi all,

I've been very grateful for all the great info that has come across this list. I thought it about time to jump in with some questions and comments. The "fear of psi" thread has been especially interesting. Since taking the first CRV course, (been too busy to practice actual targets lately) I have been practicing the ambiance exercises faithfully. Being very left-brain, visual (yes Skye...I downloaded the program and it confirmed my suspicions) I always want an explanation for any unusual phenomena. Lately, there have been times when this left-brain reality of mine has seemed somewhat fluid and wobbly. It's a physical sensation kind of like being in a car that takes a hill too fast and coming down your stomach flutters. That's the nearest I can get to describing the sensation other than it feels like I need grab onto something physical to break out of it.

Well, anyway, there is a brief "fear" until I get grounded again and I would probably do better with it if I could figure out just what it is. Has anyone had any experiences like this and is it a "side-affect" of opening up those psi centers?

Also, (this may sound silly) I have noticed a different relationship with my 2 Siamese cats. There seems to be improved communication between us.

I have found the ambiance training to be extremely interesting. Since we live in a very private setting...the increased awareness of the nature around us has been magnified. When I do get to town with all the people...it's a real trip...sometimes a real overload, but always a learning experience!

Vickie


Hi D, these experiments you mention do certainly indicate that consciousness is... at the least 'connected,' but more likely 'one' without separation (space and time both being our perceptions, only).

The experiment with having one person injure a plant and then later, having other plants react, has been done a number of times. I read of one where they had a fellow chop down a tree, then took him and half a dozen other guys to the other side of the forest, rigged up a whole line of trees, and one by one had them walk past. Yup, when the tree-killer walked past, every tree responded, though they had been nowhere near the tree affected.

I think this is important as the 'theory' part of RV. There are a lot of assumptions made in RV that actually contradict other assumptions made in the process.

For instance, it's a constant battle to convince people that monitors MUST work BLIND to the targets. People are certain that if the monitor doesn't outright tell them what it is, then they weren't "leading." This ignores the first point people usually accept when they DO RV, which is that consciousness is not limited. In proper RV protocol, the monitor is being psychic too, and the two are working together as a team for a reason. But remove the blinding and you've removed the psychic element from the monitor, which is unfortunate for the whole process. It leaves them being a sort of bumbling bull in the subtle china shop of psi -- they have to rely on babysitting your methods or analyzing how you're doing, rather than using their own intuition to work with you.

(I consider this, allegorically, like touching somebody you're doing energy work on -- it's the hand-not-quite-touching that allows the energy to be felt and manipulated by both parties; physically touch them and it's too gross/large a contact and the subtlety awareness is lost.)

Or, people will operate as if they can create some kind of "fence" around intent, around the target, around the participants; that it 'doesn't matter' what goes on with the targeting or tasking as long as the Viewer doesn't know; even though at the same time, they're doing RV because part of them accepts you can't fence consciousness in or separate it.

This again only emphasizes the importance of the lab protocol, both the few formal parts and the many learned parts over the years; narrowing participants, knowledge, intent, and aligning focus, is the only way to minimize what must surely be an uncomfortably large swamp of variables in this kind of work.

Since I had a child I've had cause to rethink a lot of these things about consciousness. I tend to spontaneously say, "She's cold," when I have no reason to think so (she may be sleeping), but feel certain of it, and so on.

Once, her dad was playing with her behind me as I sat on the floor, and she sort of threw herself back and whacked my head with hers really hard. Normally, she would immediately fall down bawling her head off, and would have trouble stopping crying once she got started. It was kind of bizarre, it was like I accepted a full transfer or something -- I fell face down bawling my head off and had a hard time stopping crying, I mean it was really extreme (my husband had NO idea what to do); she didn't even whimper once, she just looked at me curiously through the whole event. When I finally collected myself, I really had the strong sense that I had "taken it on for her" or something. I've heard about that in shamanic texts (taking someone's pain "for" them), but never experienced it before.

There were times when she was an infant, we both woke up simultaneously in the night and looked at each other, sleeping face to face, and I realized that somehow, we'd been having the same dream.

Babies look like aliens in the moonlight. Pale skin, big eyes, dark and dilated in the dimness.

You talked of people discovering events 'imprinted' on them even pre-natally. Don't know if this relates or not. Once while we were both half-asleep, I was holding Ry (my daughter) and I pulled back and just looked at her, totally open for a moment to whatever she was. And I jumped back, because I saw -- it was more a 3rd eye type of sight -- this almost solid beam (like a pencil) shoot out of the corner of her eye, like it had been "released". At the same instance, I was hit with a number of concepts, biblical comments about motes and beams in the eye and so forth, and by the understanding that some kind of perception she had of ME -- whether from her short life or sometime other -- had been "held in place" by a perception I had of HER -- and that I had looked at her just right, in a way that accepted her and allowed her to 'release that energy' and that altered perception. It was a very strange experience. I had the sense though that something fundamental about our future relationship had been improved by this.

Some of these talks about consciousness though, emphasize the realization people in RV should have about the connectivity. A lot of people think it would be really groovy to target people (Swann's methods don't teach that, but some people teaching them do anyway), you know, like be able to get into the thoughts of others for whatever reason, to solve crimes or figure people out or whatever.

What a lot of people don't grok is that there is no such thing as a one way relationship. Anything you touch, touches you back. If you're good enough to truly succeed at contacting another mind deliberately and to any great extent, you will be affected by the experience and so will they, whether or not either of you are conscious of that. (Some people feel you can "de-tox" -- my opinion is that you can de-tox _consciously_, psychologically, but you can NOT change the internal effects that the touching had.)

Technically, it's communion: it's merging. Do it well enough, and you feel others not by concept but because you are them for that moment. There is no separating yourself when the core component of contact and experience is that you are merging to whatever degree. It is not possible to escape the psychological backlash that's going to come with 'tuning into' someone really getting off on the rape and murder of a child for instance, and a lot of people learning RV want to work with police cases and this is the sort of thing that comes up. In the long run, a person would have to be really integrated and okay with their dark side to be able to accept this, without an internal fear and guilt that could almost paralyze their personal growth or Viewing skills (moreso, the more "moral" the person considers themselves).

I'd go on but this is long enough...

PJ


END ARCHIVE 23
"FEAR OF PSI" THREAD, ARCHIVE 1 OF 2 ON THAT THREAD
SEPTEMBER 05 1997 TO SEPTEMBER 17 1997

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