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Public Viewer Email Group
Archive 024
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This is an archive file of the public Viewer [VWR] email list. This list is sponsored by the private Viewer Forum, hosted by Paradigm Systems and Design, and owned and operated by PJ Gaenir. It is dedicated to discussion of the practical aspects, theories and experience of formal psychic methodologies such as Controlled Remote Viewing, and independent efforts by the public interested in working under the formal RV protocol (the set of rules which define "remote viewing" as the term was coined in a science lab). You can find details, rules, and a form for joining the email group here. The list is moderated during operation and archiving. I remove last names and detail locations of contributors (within the archives) for privacy, and signatures for space conservation. I have added notes marking the posts from former U.S. intelligence remote viewers. Archiving of posts is done manually and may not include all posts.

This is the twenty-fourth archive.

NOTE: Archives 21-24 are... kind of messy. There was a massive volume of posts, many of which didn't make it to the archives because they were off-topic, humor, flames, etc.. (But, which may be what someone responded to in a post that did make it into the archives.) Due to the message volume and response time, you may even read something that responds to messages you've never seen but which might appear a couple of archives later. (I even found one beautiful and impossible example where someone's reply to a question was quoted as the inspiration for the post that asked the original question that got the reply. I'm so confused... really, we were in the twilight zone... ) And on top of all that, the majordomo was acting up so a few things just got outright lost. So if the linear process of these archives seems to be a bit fuzzy.... bear with us. -- PJ


SEPTEMBER 05 1997 TO SEPTEMBER 17 1997
"FEAR OF PSI" THREAD, ARCHIVE 2 OF 2 ON THAT THREAD
BEGIN ARCHIVE 24

This continues the second half of the "Fear of Psi" thread. Continued from Archive #12.

>Yup, Sitchin explains the beginnings, but IMO, Velikovsky's "Mankind in Amnesia" better explains our current fears.<

Don't know the Velikovsky book. Sounds good. Do you also know Neil Freer's book, *Breaking the Godspell*, which picks up where Sitchin leaves off?

-=d=-


>The next morning, while making coffee, I got an audible voice-in-the-head "Skye, you promised!" It took me a second to figure out who was talking to me and what I'd promised to them. When I remembered, I was very embarrassed. It's really tacky and unfeeling to lie to your houseplants, doncha think?<

You bet, but what did you say to the coffee beans as you sipped your java?

I've always found Cleve Backster's experiments with plants very disturbing. That one where his female assistant tears up one rubber-tree plant's leaves, and he puts GSR sensors on the other one next to it. Later, the assistant walks into the room, and the remaining, intact plant pins the meter. . .Know the one I mean? And he's done lots more, even more disturbing ones.

I know that The Great Scandal is that all life wantonly murders living flesh and/or cells to sustain itself; everything organic is a predator. However, I confess to getting pretty twitchy when I look that fact right down the barrel. If we had maxed-out telepathic capability, would we hear a carrot scream as we approached it to dig it up and eat it? What would happen if we started to remote-view the Chicago stock yards two weeks before we went to McDonald's for the Big Mac. . .etc., etc.. . . .yeeesh!

Or. . .: Is Backster's meter-pinning rubber-tree plant actually showing excitement at the novel prospect of being completely and violently de-structured? Am I just anthropomorphizing again and not realizing that an asparagus stalk may have the plant equivalent of an orgasm as it's dipped into the Hollandaise on its way to my mouth? Maybe it knows that it's about to undergo the the Big One, the Monster Metaphysical Merger, the Becoming- One-With. . .???

I wonder if plants or other organic cellular mixes or compounds can remote view. I know, I know; y'all think that's a joke. Nope, maybe not. Consider one of Backster's other very powerful, successful experiments:

Put a large sample of your saliva in the bottom of a closed test tube (closed to prevent evaporation). Place two electrodes from a GSR into the spit, other ends connected to a voltmeter hooked to a chart recorder. Now, go into the other room and have someone put you through a stressful set of psychological tests with a timer on you. Note that the voltage spikes on the chart recorder correspond *exactly* to the moments of maximum stress you underwent. Say after me: Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!!!!! Holy Cow!!!

Now drive fifty miles away from the test-tube in the lab and do the same stress-testing. Note the timing of the voltage spikes on the chart recorder. Same like before, eh? The bigger the stress, the bigger the spikes. Say after me: Hmmmmmmmmmmmm!!!! Holy Cow!!! (Needless to say, Army Intel was very interested in this one. Could allow them to keep track of an agent who might be getting into trouble.)

This is Bell's Theorem demonstrated on the macro- level. So much for the narrow materialists' argument that Newton's Law of Locality is hashed up by Bell's Theorem *only* at the micro- level of photons and such. So the notion of "remote" may be irrelevant. <gg>

>I have, in fact, dematerialized into other universes, but I keep coming back! Damn! Must be that my "greater consciousness" thinks I have a place here. Although what it is exactly has been somewhat unclear to me, much of my many years. <g>

"How ya gonna keep 'em down on the farm. . .La dee dee dum dum dee dee?" <BG>

-=d=-


[Archivist's Note: The following email had an article attached, but I don't normally include articles in the archives. If the author wishes to contribute it to the firedocs public page you can find it there.]

Dear Fearmongers,

I think this fear thing is getting carried away.... It seems like it's time to quote the famous dictum, "We have nothing to fear but fear itself" which, if I am correct, was spoken by Sir Winston Churchill.

But I am also far enough along to realize that we are dealing with an important issue. As a novice to RV, I wonder too if I will someday find myself struggling to overcome a serious obstacle to my further development - or growth in some related (spiritual) area - occasioned by a belief structure that just stubbornly refuses to budge. And likewise, to think of others - students of all ages and from all walks of life - that I could someday be training this stuff to, underscores a need for us to COLLECTIVELY and EFFECTIVELY deal with the issue. After all, as has been suggested in relation to making Psychic Warrior into a movie, a new wave of RV candidates may soon be beating a path to the (crammed) doorways of our few 'gurus'. If all we can tell new- comers is that they may 'run into' an impenetrable personal barrier to further RV advancement, then our credibility is at stake!

Let's talk about barriers - or for precision, call it a psi-barrier, to borrow a terminology from aviation or physics? Well, to me barriers are made to be broken so why not let us get down to some real work, synergize, put our collective resources together and tackle at least a part of the mystery! Once the pieces are laid out for everyone to clearly see, perhaps some routes that can be taken/worked on will become evident. Who knows, some of what we do could open up a new field - maybe to coin a word, PSI-THERAPY. What I do NOT accept, will NOT accept, is that RVers who encounter an apparently insurmountable psi-barrier are going to be abandoned by their teachers or told they will never progress any further without offering them any alternative methodologies to overcome the problem(s).

FIRSTLY, what are we really dealing with here? Are we concerned with a problem that can be termed ego-resident? Maybe as some have alluded, we are also dealing with a psyche-resident impediment! From experience, I know some psyche problems are shallow; others are deep and may be hard to access or take a very long time to effectively recognize and deal with. Maybe a few viewers could relate, for the benefit of us all, just how they dealt with their own barriers. If you happen to be a trainer, maybe you can speak in more general terms about the types of problems students are most likely to encounter.

SECONDLY, what ways are there of treating such things? Do some students benefit from specific exercises? Are we talking of a long-term thing requiring months or years of gentle shifts in paradigms? Are we talking serious psychotherapy? Who has delt with these things through meditation, dream-work, ritual or hypnosis? I would suspect that some problems are rare or student-specific so that what could be a solution for one may have little or no relevance to another. Again, is there anyone familiar with treatments who would care to comment?

In gathering my own thoughts, the most relevant area I can be of minor help in is in active imagination. I know from my own inner work that I have many interior personalities that would be called ego-resident or psyche-resident. If I give you a fuller perspective, then I will include Stream of Consciousness(SC)-resident personalities too. In verity, it is erroneous to say a personality is resident - it is more precise to assign a personality with a quantitative figure because they are usually multi-resident and constantly moving to and from ego, psyche and SC - so you may say the once-upon-a-time artist in you is 15% ego- dominant, 75% psyche-dominant and 10% SC-dominant. What is of relevance here, is that ANY ONE inner personality can be the source of a major problem. In some recent work I did, I coaxed about 450 personalities out of psyche and ego alone! Some were reluctant to come out because they were afraid or had been failures. Others had been isolated and walled-in for many years - in prisons of their own making. Now, they are at least all communicating and working with each other to build my psi abilities including RV work. [It is difficult to impart to people just how intense this activity is - it is like feeling the g-forces while accelerating in a jet plane.] However, it only takes one to hold up all of the others. Maybe if a problem were deep psyche, then it could be the 'hurt' or 'abused' or 'scared' child that is clutching on to whatever reality is left. This prevents everyone else (in ego-psyche-SC) from moving on to the next stage of RV which may mean adjusting to new paradigms.

My heart goes out to the RVers who have given up or been left behind. Just as a good trainer can be invaluable to your progress, so can a good psychologist, psychiatrist or therapist. They usually have one thing in common - they're expensive!! So I will give you what I have obtained as an exercise. You may use it yourself or pass it on to others provided there is no fee charged. The copyright remains with me.

[article not included in VWR archives]

Love and Best Regards,

William


I have to agree with Joe on the concept that the fear of psi is so strong that many people are rendered ineffective. In my own psychic disciplines, I notice that the majority of people have a strong fear of the unknown and mostly of psi, as though it were one step in the negative, beyond the unknown. I credit television, some reading materials and the Christian Church in general for fostering this indirect link between the concept of satan and the psi itself. Couple this with the unknown and ignorance will surely take its course.

I can say that despite the negative affect of the 1-900-Psycho lines, there has been no other time in our recent history that the level of support for individuality, lack of religious oppression, science and language characteristics, has there been a more ripe environment for the exploration of this facinating field. The next 20 years will reveal more than we ever thought possible. Keep up the progress.

Rob


> Hi D, these experiments you mention do certainly indicate that > consciousness is... at the least 'connected,' but more likely 'one' > without separation (space and time both being our perceptions, only). > ........

PJ,

I won't spam your post. But, you said alot in your little diatrab that indicates to me that you indeed understand the level of psi work that we are all being called to participate in. It's not a matter of technique or protocol, its a matter of experience and functionality. Controls are merely the limits of definition and the process a pathway to the experience. Ah...but, the experiences are the keys to the universe at large and the path to understanding our interaction with the reality as it is and not merely in our limited 3 dimensional perceptions. I have no real wisdom to contribute as you have said it all very eloquently through your examples and conclusions. Good show PJ. Keep on.

Rob


>You bet, but what did you say to the coffee beans as you sipped your java?

LOL! At first glance I thought you were asking what kind of coffee beans I'd been brewing to have such an experience!

> >I wonder if plants or other organic cellular mixes or compounds can remote >view.

I don't know, but Jane Roberts/Seth said that plants have a form of memory. That if a human passes by a particular tree every day, the tree will begin to "recognize" the human.

I've never had the experience of being a tree, so I can't say for sure. I *did* have the experience of being a whale once, and *that* I highly recommend!

> > >"How ya gonna keep 'em down on the farm.

That's right! We ain't gonna work on Maggie's farm no more!

Skye


>For instance, it's a constant battle to convince people that monitors >MUST work BLIND to the targets.

And perhaps, in light of the previous discussion, we should make sure all the houseplants are blind, too! Those philodendrons are really chatty!

>I really had the strong sense that I had "taken it on for her" or >something. I've heard about that in shamanic texts (taking someone's >pain "for" them), but never experienced it before.

Or, alternately, she may have contrived to get you to release something you needed to release! The exercise may have been for your benefit, not hers.

> >Technically, it's communion: it's merging. Do it well enough, and you >feel others not by concept but because you are them for that moment. >There is no separating yourself when the core component of contact and >experience is that you are merging to whatever degree.

Or, it's not just the experience of the viewing, but more the state you need to be in, in order to perceive the other person to begin with. You can't experience a reality you aren't the vibration of; and you can't fully experience another person except by replicating their core "vibes." If you've experienced them, you're already operating, to some extent, the same core vibes that reside within yourself. In cases where someone taps into a person who is especially undesirable/ugly, the scariest thing is to realize that we all contain those aspects within ourselves.

This New Age "surround yourself with light" or "be in the light" stuff doesn't work for that reason. It's really avoidance and denial. The overall idea is to *integrate* all the various aspects...not deny them.

Skye


>Lately, there have been >times when this left-brain reality of mine has seemed somewhat fluid >and wobbly. It's a physical sensation kind of like being in a car >that takes a hill too fast and coming down your stomach flutters. >That's the nearest I can get to describing the sensation other than >it feels like I need grab onto something physical to break out of it.

Vickie, I know what you mean. I think it's an activation of the solar plexus chakra, but this influx of energy (a different type of energy?) alters the entire energy field. I think you can safely assume that it's a good thing, if a little disquieting. Sometimes disquiet breaks old habits and opens the door to new ways of perceiving and being.

>Also, (this may sound silly) I have noticed a different relationship >with my 2 Siamese cats. There seems to be improved communication >between us.

They've probably been waiting for you to wake up <g>!

Skye


>> >We all know that you have to crash a few belief systems to make this >> >possible, generally. That's easy to agree with on paper and quite >> >inspirational in theory. But realistically, what are the kinds of >> >things a person can DO to begin to dissolve those paradigms or fears? >> >Are there any certain exercises or meditations that have helped you >> >work through some of that? I mean other than just RV sessions... >> >practice is a given. Ideas?

I have personally undergone a major change in my belief systems and I am still going through it to this day. The one thing I can say that makes it easier to deal with it is: Just accept it, period! It is the simplest concept in the world, yet the hardest thing to do. People want control of their lifes. This need for control is supported by our beliefs. It's how we justify everything we do. One day, I was "guided" to just surrender all of my will and control to my higher power, or God. I don't claim to know what God is, I just have faith that there is something with a higher mind and intelligence and it probably knows a better direction for me to follow. Since then, all of my beliefs came tumbling down. I can't even really say for sure what I believe. It is too early to tell, but I know that new ones are being formed. I just have to allow it to take place and not interfere with my own development. It took many years to come to this realization, but I am so grateful that I now know how to do this. If you feel you have a connection to your higher self, give it a try. It really gives a sense of peace and relief to surrender and it doesn't matter what your religious background is. I hope this helps. As far as psi goes, I have ALWAYS believed...;-)

Heidi


> to your higher self, give it a try. It really gives a sense of peace and > relief to surrender and it doesn't matter what your religious background is. > I hope this helps. As far as psi goes, I have ALWAYS believed...;-)

Heidi, I completely understand how you feel.

Shirley MacLane's Chakra meditation tape "Going Within" brought me to the same place that you found on your own.

Her tape is very powerful and is highly interactive with one's inner self. It showed me a different view of life as I advanced through the seven Chakras. It united me with my own concept of God or higher power at the Crown Chakra.

The tape found me at the time when I needed it. It provided the insights to bring me through a very difficult period by direct application of unconditional love to all those around me in every phase of my life. It showed me the way to erase inner fears and inner hostilities. It significantly changed my direction in life and my understanding of myself and others.

I recommend her tape to anyone, but it is not for everyone.

Charles C.


>I think this fear thing is getting carried away.... It seems like it's time to quote the famous dictum, "We have nothing to fear but fear itself" which, if I am correct, was spoken by Sir Winston Churchill.<

It was FDR, me Bucko.

And for a guy who says we're getting carried away, and then spends 100+ lines on remedial suggestions, complete with elaborate alternative psychological models and specially tailored, active imagination exercises. . .hmmmmmmmmmmm.

>SECONDLY, what ways are there of treating such things? Do some students benefit from specific exercises? Are we talking of a long-term thing requiring months or years of gentle shifts in paradigms? Are we talking serious psychotherapy? Who has delt with these things through meditation, dream-work, ritual or hypnosis? <

If you read my first post on this, you know some of the things I've found helpful. Many of them are in at least a dark gray legal area. They are in this area mainly because they *do* work to unclog the pipes of consciousness and expand it beyond the fears. Quite nicely, thank you! This expansion is not popular with the Ontological Totalitarians and their attendant Consciousness Police (some of whom are licensed in the psychiatry and psychotherapy biz.)

And that help is not a one-time, one-size-fits-all panacea. Takes repeated, respectful knockings at the the door before the part that's been stomped on so hard believes you mean it, and you really want to let it take flight. (Beg pardon for the sloppily mixed metaphors, but this part plays a bit of grab-a** with English. . .among other things.)

The word "treatment" you use is unfortunate, IMHO. Probably without meaning to, it carries the weight of the mainstream Psychiatric Establishment with it. It implies there are those into whose offices we psi-fears must hie ourselves for a fix-me-up. . .that our "problem" is probably described in detail someplace in the DSM-IV, along with the appropriate counter-counter-transference measures, instructions to psych-ward nurses, etc.

I assure you, me Bucko, I'm sure as hell not talking about a "treatment" when I make the suggestions I do that might, hopefully, blow the mainstream mind.

-=d=-


> This New Age "surround yourself with light" or "be in the light" stuff > doesn't work for that reason. It's really avoidance and denial. The > overall idea is to *integrate* all the various aspects...not deny them.

Most New Age dogma is just an extension of Extrapolated Logical Progressions.

Rob


>Most New Age dogma is just an extension of Extrapolated Logical >Progressions.

I'd say that most of it is extensions of the current major religion's concepts. (The more things change, the more they remain the same.)

Skye


>It [monitor knowing the target] leaves them being a sort of bumbling bull in the subtle china shop of psi -- they have to rely on babysitting your methods or analyzing how you're doing, rather than using their own intuition to work with you. (PJ)<

A very nice and subtle point. I love it! Makes more of a dance of the RV'ing occasion.

>(I consider this, allegorically, like touching somebody you're doing energy work on -- it's the hand-not-quite-touching that allows the energy to be felt and manipulated by both parties; physically touch them and it's too gross/large a contact and the subtlety awareness is lost.)<

I've done practice sessions using both the hands-on and hands-off kind of paranormal healing work, and I think I agree. It's also quite a convincer for the neophyte to do the hands-*off* work on a subject with the subject's eyes closed. Then later, ask the subject his/her experience and hear, "Well, when you were touching me on the elbow. . ."

>When I finally collected myself, I really had the strong sense that I had "taken it on for her" or something. I've heard about that in shamanic texts (taking someone's pain "for" them), but never experienced it before.<

This is one of the hazards of the paranormal healing work too. And a hazard for any psychotherapist who leaves him/herself open to non-ordinary communication with the client, especially such communication from deeply repressed, painful places in the client. Picking up some of that stuff can sometimes drop your whole day into the dumper, particularly if the content resonates "nicely" with some of your own. The scene in *Resurrection* where the healer takes on the affliction of the healee is right on the money, and I was only disappointed that the film so vividly depicted that and then never spoke a word about how to avoid such devastation.

You may recall that way back in the beginning of this email list, the same subject came up in an exchange with Lyn, but nobody commented then on what I said. I made what I thought was a strong argument against an RVer trying to "protect" him/herself against painful or ugly content. Wrapping yourself in "light" (of whatever hue) or invoking djinns or saints or whatever is counter-productive. If it works, you don't get the necessary content, a bad outcome in police work, I think. If it doesn't work, you've set yourself up to knee-jerk against what you'll interpret as invasive. Far better, it seems to me, is to create a psychological "set" that allows and encourages the rough stuff to travel *through* you, all the way through, back to "ground" (or some other metaphor that suits you). This way you can get the data and not be stuck with it or an unwanted resonance or consequence of it. I think it'd be useful to talk to good ER nurses and physicians about how they handle this one year in and year out. If you keep on protecting yourself, you'll eventually get very brittle psychologically, and the brittleness can't help but reduce your effectiveness, especially in an ER.

-=d=-


>I can't even really say for sure what I believe. It is too early to tell, <

Pray that it always stays too early to tell. The title of Suzuki Roshi's book comes to mind: *Zen Mind, Beginners Mind*.

-=d=-


David--

>to knee-jerk against what you'll interpret as invasive. Far better, it seems >to me, is to create a psychological "set" that allows and encourages the >rough stuff to travel *through* you, all the way through, back to "ground" >(or some other metaphor that suits you). This way you can get the data and >not be stuck with it or an unwanted resonance or consequence of it.

Which is exactly the point in the CRV process of objectifying AI (aesthetic impact) and EI (emotional impact--from Stage IV on)--the idea (among other purposes) is to extract the data while allowing any negative/emotionally harmful stuff to be expelled. Several of my more recent students will remember my "turtle exclusion device" metaphor...

Paul

[Archive Note: Paul Smith, former U.S. Intell RV]


Thanks David,

>It was FDR, me Bucko.

The full (and accurate) quote is worth putting on site. It is: "The only thing we have to fear is fear itself - nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance." Franklin D. Roosevelt, first Inaugural Address, 4 March 1933.

>And for a guy who says we're getting carried away, and then spends 100+ >lines on remedial suggestions, complete with......hmmmmmmmmmmm.

I've decided to tone it down from now on. This is really a site for e-mail, not for dissertations. I love writing though so really think I should focus some effort on researching psi-expansion exercises and methodologies and just maybe, it will eventually be good enough to turn into a book.

>If you read my first post on this, you know some of the things I've found >helpful. Many of them are in at least a dark gray legal area. They are in >this area mainly because they *do* work to unclog the pipes of >consciousness and expand it beyond the fears.

Thanks. Some weeks ago, I was doing a little exercise to unclog things. My wife walked into the room and thought I was totally out of it. I had a good laugh over her concern but told her there was a moral to it all. It was, "No matter how crazy, how ridiculous, how stupid something seems, if it really works for you, then use it!"

>And that help is not a one-time, one-size-fits-all panacea. Takes repeated, >respectful knockings at the the door....

Persistence and firmness, maybe? I have found a lot of synergy comes when the ego and psyche learn to work well together. Sometimes, I find that one approach will yield little or nothing while another will be wildly successful.

>The word "treatment" you use is unfortunate, IMHO. Probably without >meaning to, it carries the weight of the mainstream Psychiatric >Establishment....

Point taken. You are right, the 'establishment' label was not intended. I have read material from a few people in the 'mainstream' though such as Dr. Judith Orloff (Second Sight) and Dr. Yvonne Kason (A Farther Shore) who appear to be doing a great service for people with psi abilities and maybe in the process, engendering something of a reality-shift in the psychiatric community.

Regards,

William


Dean Radin, author of "The Conscious Universe" was guest on Jeff Rense's Sightings on the Radio last night. If you have multimedia capability on your computer, you can listen by going to http://www.sightings.com and clicking on archived shows, then select last night's date.

I haven't listened yet, but Radin was on Art Bell a week or so ago and it was a good show.

I'm about half-way through his book and highly recommend it as a history of psi research. Radin goes into a lot of detail about the intricacies of designing tests for psi. This work has been so thorough that Hyman, of CSICOP fame, has given his recommendation of the book.

I know, if I'd get off the Internet, I could finish that book, plus Clancey's "Executive Orders," and then I could get on to the book Pursglove recommended, "Breaking the Godspell." "D" has chewed me out for placing spy-thrillers above planet-saving books like Godspell, but I guess he doesn't understand how spies could save the planet (under the Godspell or not). Someday I'll clue him in...if I ever get off the Internet. ;-)

Skye


>This New Age "surround yourself with light" or "be in the light" stuff >doesn't work for that reason. It's really avoidance and denial. The >overall idea is to *integrate* all the various aspects...not deny them.

I agree with you about the Noo Age Avoidance and Denial System (or NAADS for short), and I agree - face the demons don't run away, but there are situations with empathic people, who pick up shite from other people unless they somehow block them out or as David Pursglove suggested some months ago to let it pass to ground. Maybe it's as simple as whether or not you are vibrating at the same frequency as another person, and so an empath is just a maladjusted frequency converter.

I guess it depends on what kind of light your talking about? Flashlight, klieg lights, fluorescent light, streetlight, sunlight?

Regards,

Roger


Hi PJ,

This is in response to the post "Fear of Psi".

There have been some interesting responses to your original post. Thought I would add some of my own observations.

Since there has been a lot of activity in the group recently with a lot of people with a lot to say, I decided to break up my post into several for easier consumption.

Isn't fear a reaction - a survival mechanism for us human beings, that goes waaay back? Don't want to do something that will hurt or kill me. Maybe the fear of psi deals with the threat of physical or psychological damage.

Fear of the unknown. What we don't understand - we fear. And psi is still in that arena of the unknown in the minds of the general population for the most part.

Fear of the dark. Something I can't see or maybe feel, or hear could be a threat to me. Something might spring out at me and attack me.

Fear of success. If a person thinks "What if remote viewing does work, it's going to turn my whole world upside down and inside out"?

Fear of failure. If a person thinks "What if I fail at remote viewing or it doesn't work for me, does that make me a failure, less of a person?

Regards,

Roger


Hi,

Continuing on regarding What can be done to dissolve paradigms or fears of psi:

As other people have said in the group:

Flexibility/Adaptability - In regards to our belief system. This seems to be the most challenging and most difficult, because for some people the shift in beliefs happens swiftly and for others it can be a barrier that remains for many years or an entire lifetime.

Trust - Having a forum such as this is a great help, because there are people who have crossed this road and have related their experiences to us. They have overcome similar obstacles, that those of us who are inexperienced in dealing with/interacting with psychic phenomena have begun to encounter.

One of the benefits of training with a teacher, is their experience, and their encouragement/feedback. When we encounter something outside our realm of experience it is reassuring to have someone say "Yes, I have experienced that same challenge, and I got past it".

Experience - As much as we can talk about, read up on, research, trust other's experiences, it boils down to building a reference point for yourself; adding another chapter to your story. Building a sentence, a paragraph, a page at a time.

There are some experiences, that are out of our everyday sphere of experience in which we encounter phenomena, that is beyond our mind's ability to cope with. They start with fear proceed to shock and then shutdown. For some people this is a wall is difficult or impossible to overcome. Some people eventually acclimate and get their bearings and are able to proceed on.

I have a growing feeling that a lot of this has to do with vibrational energy and being able to comfortably shift energy levels. I guess an analogy would be shifting from walking to riding a bicycle; to driving a car in the city; to driving a on the freeway/turnpike; to riding a bullet train; to flying in an airplane; to flying in a rocket; to ?

Regards,

Roger


Continuing on regarding fear of psi...

There's an article with Joe McMoneagle on remote viewing that had some good suggestions IMHO regarding fear and overcoming obstacles located on the firedocs site at:

http://www.firedocs.com/remoteviewing/joe/jm-mbmag.html

I agree with Joe's suggestions, and think that dealing with mundane fears is as important as dealing with things that go bump in the night.

It seems to me that sometimes you have to go in the back door or through a side door to overcome the psi fear. How about some adrenaline therapy to challenge mundane fears such as:

Sky diving, rock climbing, high diving and of course riding on a big ole rollercoaster - fear of heights

Scuba diving or spelunking - fear of dark; fear of confining spaces

(of course there's always smacking the side of a bee hive and runnin' like hell before you get stung)

Seriously though, One thing I have found through experience of encountering frightening psi phenomena was that the shock and fear shut my mind down after the heart pounding adrenaline began surging through me. Just when I was thinking "what is this?" the plug was pulled. In subsequent experiences I have been able to stay with the experience for longer periods of time without shutting down. I will still have the heart pounding adrenaline experiences, but I am better able to process and react what I encounter. This crosses over in mundane life too. The more mundane frightening experiences whether they be emergency situations or otherwise, that I have gotten past and found resolution, the better I am able to react/respond.

Regards,

Roger


Hi,

Last one for this series (promise ;)

Following the train of thought before regarding dissolving paradigms and fear of psi through the back or side door:

Try stalking yourself (ala Casteņada) - becoming aware of your daily habits and routines, especially the most trivial ones. Then go about changing some of them. For example if you always brush your teeth with your right hand, then brush with your left hand. If you always have a glass of orange juice first thing in the morning, try drinking other type of juice. If you follow a particular route to work try a different one. Same thing if you follow a particular route walking to a bus stop or train station. Try a different route. Break up your routines. Some magickal practices address changing paradigms with similar procedures (I know that there are other practices, that utilize this exercise, but since the emphasis is to overcome psi fear obstacles for more effective remote viewing).

Do something childlike - draw in a coloring book with crayons (and it is okay to draw outside of the lines), buy a bottle of bubbles and blow bubbles (best done outside ;^) Go on a merry-go-round. Whatever that helps shifts you into a temporary state of innocence.

Learn a foreign language of a country and study their culture as well. Then go to an area of that country where they speak the language but little or no English (or whatever your native tongue is). When there you will be fully immersed in essentially another reality. For extreme contrast, try an Eastern country if you are from the West.

When I visited Thailand, I had some study of their language and culture, but I was in no way fluent in the language. I ended up away from the touristy areas and had to deal with a culture 180 degrees different from America and being with people who spoke little or no English. Although heat, humidity and spicy food contributed the whole experience put me in an altered state from time to time while there. Fear of the unknown, fear of something very alien to me really challenged me at first, but I relaxed into the fear and was able to fully enjoy my experience. It was while I was there, that I noticed this cultural template or overlay, that when I was able to tap into it, I began to think in that culture's way. Observing customs, behavior, manner of communication, expression of humor, etc. I have noticed other people who have traveled abroad, and venture beyond the "Welcome Americans" area and are challenged linguistically and culturally, that something changes in them. Like they tapped into the cultural overlay and become more of a global person rather than a national or local person.

As I mentioned before, as have others, experience is key. You can read all the books you can get your hands on, listen to all of the tapes, watch all of the videos, but it finally boils down to experience. For me, I have deliberately challenged myself to face my fear of psi so I could get past the guard and into the big dance.

The funny thing is, that sometimes after having had a particular type of psi experience many times, you would think okay, I've overcome that obstacle, but then Wham! just like a riptide broadsiding you it still somehow manages to scare the shite outta you. Having a good sense of humor helps.

Regards,

Roger


Roger... Having done many of the things you suggest already in my life there is one other element at work here. When you immerse yourself in another country, change your time zone, (thus sleeping habits, ) food, everything your sensory apparatus is picking up... if you are not with someone who knows you, i.e., has a concept of who and what you are, then you become unlimited in a very special way. If you can spend a couple of weeks in this alternate reality situation, you can actually establish very great changes in yourself...in your basic concept of yourself, so that when you go back to your ordinary reality, you are able to hold on to those changes in the midst of other peoples concepts.

I have found that the concepts of those around you about who you are, can be very strong, and people will resist any changes in those close to them because it makes them uncomfortable, and so there is subtle and not so subtle pressures brought to bear on the "wavemaker", to go back to being who they have always been. If you really want to change yourself in big ways, sometimes you have to actually relocate...have a different circle of associates...or many different circles of associates, so that you don't get imprisoned by the concepts of others...or remain unknown enough or mysterious enough that no one is able to hem you in with concepts. As soon as someone thinks they know you, you are in a box. At that point, you could grow an extra head and turn purple and they wouldn't notice because they are no longer interacting with you, but their concept of you.

Ingo's last couple of essays on perception really nail this on the head. His description of what actually goes on when we "see" something with our eyes is truly amazing and when one reads it is one of those things that you know you know, but it has never been put that way before...when the photons bounce off something that is interfering in the wave pattern...this goes to the visual cortex which goes to your biocomputer memory and checks it out against everything stored there. If there is no match, you won't see anything. If there is something that somewhat resembles the wave pattern...that is what you "see". All this takes such a minute amount of time we don't even notice it.

So the biocomputer is always identifying everything (as Lyn calls it..the Nag (Namer and Guesser) This is the way we maintain our world according to don Juan...we identify everything and then we talk to ourselves about it.

I find humans utterly fascinating. If we ever truly understand just how powerfully creative we are....

Leveda


Hiya all

I know I'm a little late on the discussion, but my email was down. But here's what I found works for me. I've studied religion to try to find my higher self. Christianity(Jesus) and Buddism have been the two biggest enfluences on me. My suggestions, I'm sure, will reflect that.

Change is nessessary. Without change there cannot be evolution. As Joe M. also says, one just look forward for change. Thats hard for most, what I found to work for me is to look at the situation(habitual change) as a chalange, with the attitude that I have the ability to be successfull *if* given enough time and that I stay persistant at it. Thats that.

I'm taking this from buddist belief. Change of ones hibitual actions is a slow errosion, type of practice. One most be patient and persistant and be willing to accept falures on the path to perfection or what ever path ones on.

When one belief system slowly is erroded away, there must be some thing to replace that void with and that is where growth takes place. Replacing that void with a new belief, for the most part its a very small piece of growth. But over time, let's say two weeks or a month, one can see a little progress, which is actually subtantial. Merly changing from good to more good is a mirical in itself.

I would continue but my grammer is getting worse by the character I continue later.

Hope that helps some.

Patience is a virtue.

John


> Let's narrow the field a bit, and look at one fear at a time. > What are your thoughts about personal failure?

Hiya all

In response to the question.

Personnal failures or failures are experiences. Experiences not actually hold any opions or feelings. They just are. We as sentient being attach feelings and with feeling is attached a perspective. The best perspective that I can think of is the perspective of learning something in respect to ...(possibly RV development, spiritual growth development or (hopfully) any thing wholesome(positive)).

Any hows, that is how I persieve personal failure.

John


>Your anthropology example doesn't hold. Objectification of AI in CRV has nothing to do with trying to blend in with the natives. It's much more akin to the concept behind psychotherapy, that by talking out your feelings and negative experiences with a therapist, you become able to deal with them and get beyond them.<

Oboy, are you ever from the Old School! And you sound like you've never been in psychotherapy. That vision of it is from a misunderstanding of ancient psychoanalysis which, more often than not when practiced by Freudian "mechanics", leads to "paralysis by analysis" far more often than getting "beyond" them. Not by any stretch. That's why psychoanalysis takes so long, and is so infrequently effective.

Not to mention that the "mechanics" haven't learned their Papa Freud very well: What Siggie did was *much* closer to a hypnotherapeutic approach than *just* talking. By a *loooong* shot! He came out of a hypnotherapeutic tradition and modified it just *slightly*, renaming things all over the place (as he did so well) in order to make it more acceptable to the medical profession of his day. Just figure on the basic psychoanalytic instruction: "Lie down and just start talking and 'free'-associating from one thing to the next. . .whatever comes up." If that's not a prescription to enter a modified state of consciousness, I'll eat my hat. Freud's patients did *not* sit up in a chair and talk *about* their feelings to the doctor. He was a much better shrink than that and helped a lot of people. The technique, in his hands, was effective precisely *because* he encouraged people to continue on deeper and deeper into the "free" associations, into the full recall of their feelings and pain, bringing the forgotten material back into *full* awareness, back into the BODY!

Almost any therapy today encourages precisely the opposite of what you're suggesting here. Get *into* the feelings. Re-member them; the hyphen in the word signifying the intent to get them back into the "members" of the body. Anything less is usually worse than useless. . .and costs like sin to boot. And the psychoactive compounds are, by and large, much faster and more thorough and dramatically cheaper (!) at precisely *this* task of re-membering than any shrinkage from *any* school.

Especially so is the compound, ibogaine, from a plant in Gabon. Can interrupt multiple addiction for a heavy street addict for many months in just *one* 20-30 hour session with no withdrawal symptoms at all!!! Wow! Gives the person a chance to re-structure his/her life. And boyoboy, s/he'll see and go through in that session most of the hard spaces that got him/her into addiction in the first place. The tears will flow; the fear and the rage, etc., will surface. You bet. And it's fine in these sessions for the "sitter" (sometimes a degreed person in medicine or psychology; more often not, since such licensed pros usually have mal-practice insurance issues to think about and won't go near this stuff) to burst into tears as well at hearing painful material recounted, and/or to help the tripper get deeper into rage, by expressing the sitter's own sharp indignation or anger at what s/he hears.

I go into detail a little here to try to show how not only anthro but psych, too, has pretty much given up on some kind of notion of "objectification" of any kind.

As has Quantum Mechanics since Heisenberg's Interference Principle became a staple in physics. What he showed was that any act of observation changes the phenomenon observed. And if RV isn't an act of observation, what is it?

I still say anyone is deluding him/herself if s/he thinks RV (or anything else in human life [!!]) can be "objective" in any way at all. I think all this stuff about "signal lines" and purity of the signal, etc. (BTW, what's "AOL" mean?) is mistaken. Emotion/feeling *IS* information just as much as any other perception. (But I already said that in another post. Humph!! <g>)

(It's another essay to get into how to deal with and gain useful data from a "non"-objective perceptions, both normally and/or remotely viewed. Lots of ideas there, and many good tricks to use from many traditions. I've already hinted at one or two.)

>BTW, illegal or not, last I knew they were still using Halon extinguishers in M-1 Abrams tanks. Perhaps yours are Army surplus?<

Yeah, and the street acid back in the '60s was CIA surplus. <eeee, aaawww>

-=d=-


As I noted to some of you yesterday... I am leaving the country for two weeks. I only hope by the time I return that this very tiring and boring issue of psi fear has run its course and people will have found something worthwhile to talk about. As an old paratrooper - we had a standing rule (contrary to popular belief)... if the soldier did not want to jump, we don't push, we just tell them jumping is not for them and send them to non-paratroop units. If ANYONE out there is afraid of remote viewing then please leave and go do something else... go to Taos and walk around with a divining rod and feel the vibrations... but please please spare the rest of us this constant drivel about fear and psi... if it scares you, damn it DON'T DO IT... and stop your whining so the rest of us can spend our times doing more important things than cleaning all of this psi-fear spam off our terminals... if I sound harsh it is because I have not read one piece of mail pertaining to psi-fear that had even an ounce of sincerity - it just seems some of you want to hear yourself typing or want the real viewers to stroke your hands... Now lets move on and NO MORE DAMNED PSI FEAR CRAP (or I will stop dropping in with all of my neat stories you all seem to like so much..)... see you all in two weeks... Gene...

[Archive Note: Gene "Kincaid," former U.S. Intell RV]


Hi Viewers,

Well this has been an interesting experience. I really wanted to see if I could get the group to talk about the fear of psi. For a number of reasons... the first because it IS hard to talk about things one might have an issue with, so it was an experiment. Two, because I wanted to see how people responded, and how the Viewers on the list responded. Three, because I thought some heavier personal insight stuff would do well in the archives.

I did not mean for it to become a discussion on fundie-ism, or who's bad or disbeliving and why. Or a soapbox, though it's nearly impossible to be the only one talking (when writing a post) and not have it sound like a lecture (me more than most people). Or a whiner support group, as Gene's response indicates.

I don't know that the 'fear of psi' topic is much useful past this point, unless people want to talk about specific issues they have or are dealing with in the process of this though.

I am trying to redirect this email group away from the 'magic methods' approach, mostly since we can't talk about detail methods in a public group of course, so what is there to talk about? I want to see it address more of the fundamental issues that people learning RV -- any kind of RV -- encounter. Personal growth, spirituality, morality, frustration and elation, theories, experiments, etc.

In other words, I think there is a lot of publicity about remote viewing methods out there that is... confusing or misleading to the public (and this is a PUBLIC group, an extension of the PRIVATE Viewer Forum). You hear a lot of exalted sounding terminology, as if there is this truly cosmic thing that occurs and that does this work for you... and some of this stuff boils down to things like, "in other words, you write it down." Or, "you write it on the right side of the paper." In other words, the cosmic impression that an ignorance of the methods tends to lend the talking about it publicly is charming but not very realistic. The methods are not cosmic, though they are very useful. The experience MAY be cosmic, guess it depends on your level of skill and your target.

Due to my being on the web so much, I get tons of email. From CRV students, TRV students, SRV students, and so on (and graduates of course, that's what I mean). Regardless of method, if this is really done well, the same fundamental issue comes up: this is about deep rooted personal change. Anybody who is not aware of that, who thinks it's a few days of seminar to be instantly omniscient, is sorely misled.

People expect the methods to make them brilliant. They "hand off their power" to the methods, to a guru, to something other than themselves, which is the first issue that bothers me; the second is that there is some "surface activity" about methods that kind of distracts from the root-level personal work that needs to go into being really good at anything like this.

I want the public to know that this personal development is a part of becoming a remote viewer, and if it's not, then whatever you learned didn't touch you, didn't change you in the way you needed to be to be truly good at this. I want people in the public who are working with the SRV online manual, or the TRV videotapes, or just jumping in and DOING it based on what you've learned in books (Joe McMoneagle's MIND TREK gives instructions and ideas for working on your own) or on the web -- I want there to be some serious conversation that is a sort of psychological, developmental help to these people. The students and Viewers are the ones going through it, they're paving the way.

Maybe it sometimes seems long or boring, or trivial, but I assure you there are people who read this stuff like starving men, and email me saying, it's their only source of real, active, personal information on the subject -- they're grateful, and it helps them. That's one of the big purposes of the group, and although no email group is perfect (you can't regulate 200 people, or ensure that they only feel humorous or serious when YOU do), I think this one has done very well overall, and it's thanks to the contributions of members. I'm grateful. My personal goal has been to document the hell out of RV and get it on the web for the world, and this group has really been a step forward in that direction.

For now, if you don't mind, let's drop the "general" topic of Fear of Psi. Though I'm happy to address specifics on the subject if you have them.

I really appreciate the response of everybody. Glad we finally got you out of the woodwork D. You know, if enough people on this list were interested, I would make another public BBS for discussion of this stuff. Moderated. I'm not putting up with the hostile politics in this field but I'd be glad to take some of this discussion -- the slightly off topic stuff, the personal and humor stuff -- to another venue.

I'm in Los Angeles, in yet MORE training with Lyn Buchanan. Having a good time. You guys behave while I'm gone and don't talk about aliens okay? Haha! I'm just kidding. ;-) Hope you are all doing well.

PJ


END ARCHIVE 24
"FEAR OF PSI" THREAD, ARCHIVE 2 OF 2 ON THAT THREAD
SEPTEMBER 05 1997 TO SEPTEMBER 17 1997

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