firedocs archives

Public Viewer Email Group
Archive 050
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This is an archive file of the public Viewer [VWR] email list. This list is sponsored by the private Viewer Forum, hosted by Paradigm Systems and Design, and owned and operated by PJ Gaenir. It is dedicated to discussion of the practical aspects, theories and experience of formal psychic methodologies such as Controlled Remote Viewing, and independent efforts by the public interested in working under the formal RV protocol (the set of rules which define "remote viewing" as the term was coined in a science lab). You can find details, rules, and a form for joining the email group here. The list is moderated during operation and archiving. I remove last names and detail locations of contributors (within the archives) for privacy, and signatures for space conservation. I have added notes marking the posts from former U.S. intelligence remote viewers. Archiving of posts is done manually and may not include all posts.

This is the fiftieth archive.


November 1997
BEGIN ARCHIVE 50

PJ had given IT to a lot of us about digression into other subjects beside remote viewing. As a result, a lot of superficial posts seem to have been eliminated.

Now we are on the subject of dowsing, a subject very remotely connected to remote viewing. PJ, herself, thought she was an audio tape dowser as a kid and had interesting comments about it. I enjoyed them. There seems to be a lot of interest in dowsing from everyone even though we have digressed from the main objective of this list, Remote Viewing, as originally indicated by boss lady PJ.

This points to an issue that has bothered me since PJ decided to clamp down on the subject matter on this list. We all have many varied psi related interests. I personally have gained a lot from discussion on other subjects like hemi-sync, out of body experiences, God, etc. I miss them.

Since dowsing is now an active thread, I would enjoy seeing other threads on other subjects in the psi arena and long as the posts aren't personal attacks and are not stupid and glib (as some were).

There was talk of creating another list for other subjects beside remote viewing. This has not materialized. Anyway, it is better to have everything under one roof with everyone here in one place. It works better.

A BBS in place of this mail list is a good idea to, but it must be integrated. We should be able to easily follow threads on any subject, have everything open in front of us, and be easily navigable. New messages should be immediately available. This is why the A&E BBS is not working well for me. It lacks integration. You will notice that just a few areas are used by the same people. Most posts in the other areas are old and outdated. People are not using this BBSt to the extent it was intended for.

I think PJ should open this list to other psi and mind related subjects as was done with dowsing and let it flow on its own, or find a better way of administering the list, or create a new BBS.

Charles C


Hi Charles,

Thanks for the feedback. This list is for the public and as such, what the public thinks truly is important to me. (Not perhaps moreso than what I think, but that probably goes without saying.) I'll give your comments a response, which they deserve.

>>Now we are on the subject of dowsing, a subject very remotely connected to remote viewing.

I realize that your training is via Farsight and I don't know much about that like I do CRV, for example. In CRV both as a structure and operationally, dowsing IS in fact very much a part of the actual subject itself. Ideograms are a tool in stage 1. Dowsing is a tool in stage 6. As such, neither of them are more or less [than each other] related to remote viewing, at least as far as methodologies go, or ability to use it within RV protocol goes.

I'm not certain if maybe your training didn't cover that aspect of things, so it seems like a separate subject to you. One doesn't get through CRV training without having to work with dowsing. Since it's part of training, and part of performance, I consider it part of RV. Even though -- like ideograms for example -- it has its own descriptive term, and a whole practice unto itself.

I realize that other schools or students may have different perspectives on this. (They can, of course, start their own lists.)

>>This points to an issue that has bothered me since PJ decided to clamp down on the subject matter on this list. We all have many varied psi related interests. I personally have gained a lot from discussion on other subjects like hemi-sync, out of body experiences, God, etc. I miss them.

With a few extreme exceptions, I am perfectly open to hemi-sync, OBE, God, etc. being on the list. There have been posts about that off and on. If they are mostly absent it is simply because people are not posting them. If I complain about list topics, it is usually because they have gotten out of hand and are dominating any conversation about RV. In moderation I am open to lots of stuff. It's just that "in moderation" does not seem to be a concept that works for a lot of people for some reason.

If you use OBE as a form of psychic data collection, I'm happy to talk about it on the list; RV protocol is not method-dependent. If however we want to simply talk about OBE's/God -- there are other lists for that. They are large and interesting subjects. Personally as list owner, and also as someone considering what works for the Viewers on this list who are kind enough to share their experiences with us, I don't think I want to double or more the volume -- certainly not with non-RV stuff.

When I 'clamped down' as you put it, the non-RV topics dropped, the list went almost silent for a few days, and then people got back to talking about RV, and the volume came up again. That was exactly what I was hoping for. Now, if people want to talk here and there about a 'generally related' topic, I'm fine with that. IN MODERATION. This is an RV list, and the dominant focus of it will remain RV, or I will get bent out of shape. Sorry -- but history shows (and I do the archiving manually, so I see this clearly) that "pruning the tree" of conversation back to RV greatly increases the output and quality of RV conversation. (Besides, there are thousands of email lists and BBS's on the WWW/Net devoted to all those other subjects.)

If the Viewers who agreed to participate in this list, and myself, had a lot more time, we could have an expanded discussion horizon. Right now that isn't functional for us. But, since their best and most unique expertise is in RV, I would rather have them participate only in RV discussion than not participate with the public at all. (After all, if they want to discuss OBE and God, there are lists for that they can join additionally.)

I have a private Viewer Forum which, were they not here, they could spend more time there -- working with CRV students and each other. They want to maximize what time they have to communicate, so for the most part, they do it here on the list, for the general public and other non-CRV students. If the list expands TOO far outside the borders of RV -- particularly concerning time investment even in reading let alone responding -- they may not have time or willingness to deal with it. I would be just as happy for them to participate in the private VF as here on the list. It works for me. But for the public's sake, and those who are not CRV students, it would be unfortunate loss.

>>There was talk of creating another list for other subjects beside remote viewing. This has not materialized.

The offer was for a list that would discuss the use of psychic methodologies (including RV methods) to target "anomalous" targets; also, to pull in some of the less directly related psi topics. The offer still stands. On average, about 5% of the members of any email list participate (except lists which have rules requiring it). I said if I had 35 people say they would join, I would at my own time and expense make them the list. I got about a dozen. I still have their names. If another 23 materialize, I'll do it.

>>Anyway, it is better to have everything under one roof with everyone here in one place. It works better.

Since it has never actually been that way, I don't know for sure that it would work better. It is true that all these subjects overlap and intertwine and so are comfortable near each other, you're right about that. Unfortunately, the more people and subjects you fit under one umbrella, the bigger the umbrella has to be. I've been on email lists that averaged 70 posts a day on any of 14 topics and holy cats -- I'm not on them any more. I would rather people have the option to join numerous lists if they are interested in numerous topics, rather than forcing people interested in RV to have numerous lists-worth of conversation in their mailbox just because they want to learn about RV.

>>A BBS in place of this mail list is a good idea to, but it must be integrated.

I don't think I could do a BBS in place of the mail list, as some people are not very browser-capable but are very email capable (such as people who have old computers, or get email at work, etc.). When I suggested that, and I still might do it, it was as an _adjunct_ to the list -- because on a BBS it is easier to discuss a wider range of topics without invading somebody's mailbox with two dozen emails a day that they aren't remotely interested in (and have to read to see, usually). Subjects such as EEG and remote influence for example, I would like to see on a BBS so they could get talked about. They relate to RV, though not as directly as the components actually taught in RV methodologies. They deserve discussion. Unfortunately I just don't want to open the bandwidth of this list to that.

>>This is why the A&E BBS is not working well for me. It lacks integration.

Not surprisingly, as it was designed mostly to separate, not integrate. Something of an experiment we had. Actually, the project's not being utilized is our own fault -- A&E is actually Lu's project, not mine -- we made it, and never even had time to begin to participate much let alone bring in new people or threads or advertise it. It would barely have been heard of at all had I not had him add a board or two related to psi, so that I could close down the old View From Here BBS without people who were using it for benefit, like sharing targets, having nowhere to go. The plan was supposed to be that psi stuff would only be on the A&E BBS for a brief time, until I set up the Firesite BBS, and then I would move everybody back to my "home," and then we would both promote our own areas. But due to being really busy, we never had time to even begin work with it, let alone keep up with it -- like my own Firedocs web site, it gets updated MAYBE once a month, because I am just too busy doing other things, and client projects. Never even got around to making the Firesite BBS. Might do that in the next couple of months though. Am still considering how I want to work it.

>>I think PJ should open this list to other psi and mind related subjects as was done with dowsing and let it flow on its own,

A valuable point of view, and one no doubt many people on the list share.

But alas, I honestly feel that I cannot open it to subjects outside remote viewing protocol, remote viewing methodologies, and the theory behind those. It's _not_ that I disagree with you that other topics are valuable and relevant and interesting. They are. It's just a matter of quantity and time.

There are currently a number of web BBS's devoted to remote viewing from some of the schools, yours included. The conversation there brings lots of people together to talk about lots of different things. And, any given 500 messages do not have the content of valuable hands-on RV information that 50 on this list have. I'm not saying that is good or bad; I'm simply saying that there are options for "wider horizons" already available, and this particular option is for a narrower focus, because I own it and that's what I want, and because the participation of the people most valuable to the list is time-limited. There is a real benefit to the BBS's as they currently exist and I would not change them to match this list's approach; by the same token, I don't think it's necessary to change this list's approach to match their own. People can choose what works for them. It's good that we have a variety of options.

As for moderation, I realize that it truly annoys some people. I used to be on the Art Bell Fans email list. When the list owner (Keith Rowland) finally began moderating the list, half the members just freaked out, I mean the rules did not change, but the idea somebody was enforcing them made them react like spanked kids. I was just about to unsubscribe -- as had numerous really worthwhile people already, alas, due to the volume and the lack of focus and so on. The quality of discussion, after Keith began moderating, became FAR more interesting and worthwhile, the volume decreased by about 30% (thank god), and it was downright sad when he decided to close it down in favor of the BBS system. That really was an education for me about the value of moderation, and the loss of valuable people one faces without it, and Keith was really balanced about how he handled it, which I respected.

In the long run, one thing to consider is that I am not a school. I am not a teacher. I am not a company. Everything I have done related to putting RV information on the web has been solely my own project, done for my own interest, at my own time and expense. I made my Firedocs web site to share what I'd learned (for better or worse) with anybody interested. BBS's the same way, although I will NEVER do an unmoderated BBS again, after the nightmare of The View From Here project. (I will not spend my time and money dealing with adults with personality and mental problems, who hate me merely because I am not proclaiming them the sole god of RV, or dealing with their hate mail. In the future, registration will be required for any BBS I run.) For those who are not interested in my perspective, that's fine too. My goal was not to do what pleased everybody, but to do what worked for me and I had time for, and those who wanted to learn had the option to participate with me.

I will never have the time, interest or ability in doing enough, or doing it in a way, that pleases everybody. Unfortunately, that's just the way life is.

>> or find a better way of administering the list

I am open to suggestions. However, I think you have pretty much made them already. I wish there was some issue here that I could adopt or compromise on, it would make me seem a lot more yielding.

>> or create a new BBS.

I will probably create a multi-board BBS on the firedocs site within the next month or two. One would be what you are asking for: whatever psi topic people want to talk about, they can. (It will not take long for the discussion, flowing on its own, to make my point about the value of focus for me.) One would be private for my friends, who alas, are not all Viewers and so can't come into my existing private Viewer Forum (which would save me the trouble of making yet another). Maybe other boards but I haven't decided on the details. That much, at least, I can do. Give me a little time... Lu and I are both up to our eyeballs in work and no time (and a hollering toddler who is unhappy about both issues).

PJ


Joe,

The associative target pool William M proposed for the open search was one or more sets of color-coded hemispheres/countries/jurisdictions/etc. His approach sounds rather interesting and even slick, actually. Maybe something useful to keep in mind in doing our "real" targets, as helpful to narrow the field before getting down to serious map-dowsing or some other closer-in search technique?

More to the point, for that kind of search, do you think that William's color-assignment proposal constitutes the kind of "more appropriate associative target pool"? Or would you have a better suggestion for this kind of ARV target (maybe widely different kinds of small objects, each assigned to a country/whatever)?

Thanks for giving us the benefit of your insights/experience,

GeneT


>So, does bilocating feel somewhat like an OBE? A lucid dream? A >hypnagogic state? Physical here-and-now? Anywhere in between? >>How do Viewers experience it?

Viewers DON'T experience it. Not the flashy Hollywood version. Hardly ever. And has been said over and over by those who've been in this field for years, remote viewing IS NOT OBE! There are quite-valid perceptions of the target, but it's difficult, if not impossible, to know which are the valid perceptions or which aren't. (Otherwise there would be no need for analysis of the session later...the viewer would be able to isolate those elements with 100% accuracy, which they can't.)

Sessions are built a perception at a time. These perceptions DO represent contact with the target, but the idea of true bilocation is not part of this picture, with very rare exception, except in the writings of those who apparently have something to gain from the over-glamorization ($...fame/ego...$...more ego...$. I don't include Ingo in that set.)

The harsh fact is that learning to remote view is a slow, sometimes frustrating process. It's like trying to pick up a needle while wearing asbestos gloves, in the dark. Counterbalancing this is the fact that it's also a lot of fun and it's amazing how often we do manage to nail the needle! ;-)

In my experience bilocation does not feel like an OBE, but that's another discussion that has practically nothing to do with RVing.

Skye


>So, does bilocating feel somewhat like an OBE? A lucid dream? A >hypnagogic state? Physical here-and-now? Anywhere in between? How >do Viewers experience it?

Hi Rick;

I am not sure I can answer your questions, but I will share what I know and what I have experienced. The first time I saw bilocating was while I was walking down third Avenue in Manhattan, NY, with Paul Smith after we had worked some training sites. As I remember, it was a bright, sunshiney day. All of a sudden Paul was not really there anymore. The lights were on, but no one was home. His eyes were even more glazed than usual.(only kidding Paul). Paul and I were in the same place and time physically, but we were seeing different things. I was seeing taxis and sky scrapers and Paul was seeing the site he had just worked. I got Paul up against the buildings, because I was afraid that in the world he was seeing he might be running through sand and surf, but in the world I was seeing he was about to be running through taxis and limos. Eventually Paul returned to a state which is about as normal as Paul ever gets (once again, just kidding old friend). Later we talked to Ingo about it. Ingo said Paul had bilocated. Bilocation was not something Ingo encouraged.

I think the closest I came to bilocating, while working CRV, was while I was doing a stage 3 training site late on a Friday afternoon. Skip Atwater was the monitor. I was really on that day. It was a land/water interface. I was going on about the water and the sand, the trees, etc. Skip had me move inland. I came face to face with a nine foot long Komoto dragon (the biggest lizzard in the world). I screamed (tough for a Ranger to admit) BIG F@#@***ING LIZZARD. Jumped up, tipped over my chair and the RV table and thought long and hard about killing Skip to stop his laughing. I guess I looked like a man who was stacking jack rabbits and somebody flung him a rattlesnake. I may not have seen the lizzard, but I felt the lizzard and it was very, very real. That is the only time in CRV that I may have bilocated. Obviously I was unable to report back anything other, than there were very big, ugly creatures here.

What DM talks about in his book (see PJ, I did not say anything nasty) is ERV, or at least his impressions of ERV, maybe edited a wee bit to sell more books, maybe not. Joe is the best at this that I know of. For me, ERV is sometimes like a dream, sometimes like being there, sometimes like being someplace underwater where the water is dirty and it is difficult to see clearly. Other times it is very real, particullarly if I have worked the same site a number of times. I worked a site, with Gene as the monitor, over an extended period of time. Everyday I went to the same place and saw basically the same people. It was real in a way, but I always knew Gene was there and I had the option to return anytime I wanted. During these sessions, I normally spent over an hour on site. It was very cold. I can only describe it as infantry cold: the feeling that you are cold to the bone and it will be days, weeks or months, before that cold leaves you. I actually felt that cold. I actually smelled the tea cooking over the campfires. But I did not bilocate. I always knew I was actually in a room at Ft Meade. I was always able to report what I was observing.

I want to bring up something here which I do not understand. Sometimes while ERVing, I go someplace. I have no idea where and I have no idea how long I am there. When I was working with a monitor, Gene, Skip, or Ed they would notice I was not reporting anything. They would then ask me what was going on? This would bring me back. I could remember the last thing I reported, but I could not remember what had happened since I reported that and they brought me back. This is a problem in working without a monitor. When I come back on my own I have no idea how long I have been gone and how long I have been riding the signal line. Any comments would be appreciated.

Rick, I do not know if this helped you any. I guess it helped me talking about it. I think the bottom line is bilocation is very rare, and it is not something I would try to achieve.

Slainte

May the force be with you

Liam

[Archive Note: Liam, former U.S. Intell RV]


> So, does bilocating feel somewhat like an OBE?

Hi Rick,

Yes,IMHO it does. At least from what I experienced. But you have to be very careful with words and people.

1/ Some people talk about OBE and/or bilocation, but don't practice,

2/ Some other practice but may designate just one type of OOB experience on a very large scale of possibles.

3/ You have some people who have followed the same OOB and or bilocation induction program and may have experienced very different things (sensations, fears, pleasures, visions, smells, sounds, ambiences, surroundings, etc.). So that they may answer to your question, very honestly, but in various ways .

4/ Bilocation is for some people just another word for OOBE, and for others not.

5/ Harper's Encyclopedia of mystical and paranormal experience (1991) says for bilocation : "The appearance of an individual in two distant places at once.It is not known precisely what occurs in a bilocation, but prevailing theory suggests that it is the projection of a double..."

The best way, IMHO, to make your own opinion on that debate is to experience it by yourself,... if you have time and practical interest in it.

> <snip> Physical here-and-now? Anywhere in between?

In certain methods you just "get/fly/jump/click in" on the target and - when it works (... it occurs sometimes, but unfortunately not always at will :) - you just feel as entirely in the so called "There". You may see the things on the target as they are, and eventually have an experience of the site as if you were living on. In some experiences you even forget - during some seconds/minutes - that you have a body on a chair "somewhere in the world", before getting back from your OOB journey.

In other methods I've experienced you learn to be There and to be able in the same time to report to somebody or to your tape recorder what you've experienced when being "OOB".>>As if<< you could just send a part of your "consciousness" on the target site and in the same time be enough Here and awake to report.

> How > do Viewers experience it?

Once again, Rick, IMO it depends on what you call "Viewers"". It may designate a very large range of people and skills. Remember that to look at things/people/events not present in your close surroundings is a very very old practice, with myriads of variations and degrees in success.

If you're interested in discovering some of these experiences by yourself, you could maybe 1/ either put a look at The Monroe Institute homepage (you find there very skilled people in OOBE and very good on OOB theory, with exciting programs), 2/ or at Angela Thompson's (very interesting) Extended Remote Viewing long course (you get there a treasure box on these matters, with practical experiences and theoretical discussions),

Regards Jean-Luc.


Liam--

you wrote: >The first time I saw bilocating was >while I was walking down third Avenue in Manhattan, NY, with Paul >Smith after we had worked some training sites. As I remember, it was > a bright, sunshiney day. All of a sudden Paul was not really there >anymore. The lights were on, but no one was home. His eyes were even >more glazed than usual. <...>

Next time you have an experience that involves me, let me know so I can check to see if I really was there...

JUST kidding! I use this example as an illustration when I talk about bilocations in my CRV courses. I forgot though, that you were there. I DO remember the weather differently--I seem to recall that it was partly overcast, blustery, and occasionally spitting little snow flurries. It made the South Pacific island I was bilocating to so much more attractive...

This points out the "witness problem" that comes up whenever one tries to recall past events or describe RV targets that are being addressed jointly by more than one viewer. Every witness/viewer has his/her own individual perspective when observing something, whether in the "real" world or while remote viewing. In addition, we each tend to remember things at least a little bit differently than anybody else with memories of the same events. One person remembers the car involved in the accident as being red, while another remembers it as blue (so was the "other car" in the Princess Diana accident REALLY white...?). Liam remembers the NYC bi-lo experience as being during sunny weather, whle I remembered it as being during blustery weather. Who is right? Well, we'll probably never know for sure. Fortunately, for most things it usually doesn't much matter. And then again, maybe there were two separate instances, and I just blended them together--since I seem to recall nearly walking into a stair-well in my somewhat "altered" state, while Liam remembers pushing me up against a building until I "recovered my wits"--whatever "wits" are.

Paul

[Archive Note: Paul Smith, former U.S. Intell RV]


Liam wrote: >Sometimes while ERVing, I go someplace. I have no idea where and I >have no idea how long I am there. When I was working with a monitor, >Gene, Skip, or Ed they would notice I was not reporting anything. >They would then ask me what was going on? This would bring me back. >I could remember the last thing I reported, but I could not remember >what had happened since I reported that and they brought me back. >This is a problem in working without a monitor. When I come back on >my own I have no idea how long I have been gone and how long I have >been riding the signal line. Any comments would be appreciated.

Sitting here in my tree, high & dry above the mud flats of practice and controversy, it occurs to me that one or more of the experienced people might take this problem as a target. PJ could bank the results if any. Beyond that expert judgment will be needed. As in, does Liam need to know? Ought he to know? etc. Depending on the outcome.

This has the flavor of something beyond the scope of the intell programs and protocols.

Certainly don't want to come across here as impertinent. Ignorant, maybe, I can live with that.

Tom C


Hi All,

Having encountered my first ever biological target, I have a few Qs.

BTW, my hubby does automatic writing. Pages of it upside down sometimes. But its perfectly legible. He gets the glassy eyed, noone home, effect too. I asked him if he knows where he goes, but he doesn't know. He can sit writing for an hour without blinking.

My Qs.

With biological targets are you supposed to describe them or be them? And if the answer is the first, how do I stop automatically doing the second? With an animal, are you targeting that specific creature or the species? Is it more difficult to disconnect from a living creature than a place? Can you be a plant?

P.S. If you can be a plant, you could be a tree in a forest, with nobody there, and know if you make a sound when you fall....but then taking bilocation into account, is there noone there?....... and if there's noone there, where are You... Just kidding folks. At least I've got my sense of humour back.

MaryD.


Joe wrote: <<Unfortunately, there is such an "black reputational scourage" that surrounds the use of "Psychics" (translate--remote viewers) within the Government, that no one who gets their position by vote or appointment will touch any of this with a ten foot pole. LARGE SIGH! At least until the first suitcase bomb goes off.>>

Only if it was documented beforehand!! HAHAHAHAHA!

Seriously, Joe, I think that the black reputation we enjoy (the term is loosely used) is in large measure perpetrated by the disinformation boys. I don't care if anybody thinks I'm paranoid. In America the land of the FREEdom of thought (oh, yeah?), or anywhere, come to think about it, only those who desire control and some hidden agenda would try to suppress the search for the truth. RV represents a HUGE threat to any and all undercover operations. Having it in the hands of the public must have been a nasty surprise. The disinformation boys wouldn't bother if it didn't work.

I'm just trying to do something useful to help others. I couldn't care less about intrigue, spying, counting bombs in silos, etc. Let someone else do that if it seems important. The applications of RV are so far-reaching that it boggles the mind. I'd like to see us put it to work for planetary assistance (ozone layer, hunger, pollution, ethnic conflict, our own coming Civil War....). Am I being premature? The Viewers from the Unit surely have enough experience to find some lofty heights, not like us new ones who are still groping. Paul, Joe, Lyn, Mel, others whose names I don't know? what about this?

This forum (thank you again, PJ) is the place for us to pow-wow about the general direction. I love it.

Nancy


Hey, everybody!

In the middle of teaching a class, so don't have alot of time for e-mail. But, I did get in the response from my AF fighter pilot buddy about the wayward A-10. Anybody interested in an e-mail copy please contact me at my alternate e-mail address of: rvis4@rviewer.com . I'll get it to you sometime during the week. Enjoy!

Paul

[Archive Note: Paul Smith, former U.S. Intell RV]


END ARCHIVE 50
November 1997

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