[VWR]-Digest: V2 #76


Date: Sat, 4 Apr 1998 15:49:59 EST
From: Blarosa830 <Blarosa830@aol.com>
Subject: Re: [VWR] AOL in ERV

I am a "newbie," but very grateful to be on your e-mail list. I am
learning so much just by reading the postings. I truly appreciate
the input of the "old-timers," and enjoy the bantering back and
forth. Thankyou PJ for this site. I have been reading and studying,
and hopefully will be attending one of Pru's Workshops when she is
able to head this way (Long Island). In the meantime, I find many
quality postings from many people. To All: Thankyou, and keep up
the good work!

Best Wishes, Betty

- ----------------
Moderator's Note: Once again my sites or corr. groups is making
somebody ELSE money, I see. I think RV instructors oughtta start
sending me a % or something..... :-) -- PJ


Date: Sun, 5 Apr 1998 09:40:12 -0400
From: Prudence Calabrese <prudence@largeruniverse.com>
Subject: Re: [VWR]-Digest: V2 #71

>Thanks Pru for all your efforts on the VWR Digest's part. Your
>support for PJ while she was in transit was commendable. Now stick
>around and continue to share your comments.

Thanks Joe, and everyone else who sent thanks my way. I promise to
stick around and contribute to the list! I learned an incredible
amount from interacting with all of you - some RV stuff, but mostly a
bunch about human nature and conflict resolution! (Thinking about the
drugs in rv thread now...)

Thanks again to one and all for making it * easy * to moderate the
list.

Peace,

Pru

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Prudence Calabrese
Director
TransDimensional Systems
http://www.largeruniverse.com
tel: (770) 814-9410
fax: (770) 497-1129


Date: Sat, 4 Apr 1998 14:31:22 EST
From: Curran2106 <Curran2106@aol.com>
Subject: Re: [VWR] AOL in ERV

In a message dated 98-04-04 12:49:10 EST, you write:

<< Moderator's Note: Intell soldiers with a personable exterior....
you guys are all barbarians in disguise. ;-) <Ducking> -- PJ >>

What can I say except that Liam is correct in affirming what I
already said...it's his way....no doubt also taking full credit for
my insightful comments at the same time...Liam, very slight defense,
was fairly good at avoiding the pitfalls of AOL and its evil uncle
AOL-Drive but it was not without long hours of practice...HE once
reported a very tall building of slight importance surrounded by a
ring of trees bending under the heavy winds .. The target was the
Washington Memorial - yes a building of little importance but the
ring of trees are in fact a ring of US Flags on tall flag poles...The
more you practice the more you will recognize and avoid AOL in ERV...
As to his comments directed at Pru concerning my charm and personal
attractiveness as being nothing but a sham for my well conealed Irish
savagery...well yes ... he is right to an extent...I have to hold back in my
strong desires to do as most Irish warriors would do in similar situations and
ravish the comely lass we know as Prudence...it comes with discipline..well
practiced and well polished..it is part of my assiiliation into non-Irish
society...in the case of Liam, he has not accomplished this assimiliation
fully and is often an embarrassment to all those around him...Sandy, his
lovely Amerind Bride has a saying about Liam..."He is the type of man you can
take anywhere...........once!"
Warmest regards
Gene "Kincaid"...


Date: Sat, 04 Apr 1998 00:44:53 -0500
From: "R. Michael O'Bannon" <mob@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [VWR] Psychotropic Drugs

At 01:27 AM 4/3/98 -0800, you wrote:

>BTW, your post was great. I agree with yours and David's [Pursglove]
>position regarding drugs. Shamanistic "versions" of remote viewing
>are, in an obviously different context, just as legit as our own.
>They would look at our gray rooms, our coffee machines, a viewer
>stepping out for a smoke, etc. as anthropological oddities . . . and
>they would be correct.

I can assure you that they DO find our way of remote viewing very odd.
We also have to keep in mind that their system has been in use for 5000+
years by multiple cultures. That's a rather strong vote of confidence.
They certainly have had many more clients and sessions than remote
viewers in traditional Western culture. So if you even if you take the
very traditional Western approach of adding up the numbers, the Shamanic
systems get a solid vote.

R. Michael O'Bannon, Ph.D.


Date: Sat, 4 Apr 1998 09:36:07 -0500
From: David Pursglove <74434.351@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: [VWR] Psychotropic D

>Shamanistic "versions" of remote viewing are, in an obviously
>different context, just as legit as our own. They would look at our
>gray rooms, our coffee machines, a viewer stepping out for a smoke,
>etc. as anthropological oddities . . . and they would be correct.
>Rick Lucertini
- --------------
>Moderator's Note:
>RV vs. Good Drugs.... mmmmmnnnn.... RV is cheaper. :-) -- PJ<

Mmmmmnnn, yrself, PJ. <g> But now that you've put your moderating
oar into this one (which was putatively over before you got back), I
can't resist a retort. <sound of one hand rubbing together>:

Yeah, cheaper maybe (except for the training [!] and unless you know
the right people), but hell, you get what you pay for. With RV you
can spend long and not too enticing hours detailing out equipment on
a construction site in Birmingham, AL or maybe a tablespoon full of
green cough medicine from an ad in *Ladies Home Journal*. With just
a halfway decent psychoactive you can get a hell of a lot better pix
than that. (Unless you're one of those SRVers that can go see God. .
.but God in his *kitchen*, fer cryeye. . ?? No self-respecting
psychoactive would portray The Absolute in such a reductionist,
anthropomorphized, twiddle-de-dee fashion. Since when does God need
to eat?) };-\

- -=d=-

- -------------
Moderator's Note: Aaaack! Irreverent blasphemer! A heathen in our
midst! D your lack of awe about all this is refreshing.... -- PJ


Date: Sat, 4 Apr 1998 09:36:08 -0500
From: David Pursglove <74434.351@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: [VWR]-Digest: V2 #71

PJ Gaenir wrote:
> At this point there is quite a bit of (empirical, of course) evidence
>documented by investigators in the field, particularly in the case
>of children remembering great detail about lives spent (as adults)
>in cultures dramatically different from their own. Some of the
>accounts would knock your socks off. I don't have references off
>the top of my head. Maybe David Pursglove knows of some.

The very best work is by Ian Stevenson at UVA. Incredibly
persuasive! with kids, mostly not in the USA, several in India, if I
recall right. ALso, if memory serves, he found only about 13 cases
out of hundreds investigated that really cut the mustard. And they
*really* do. (And no, PJ, Ian didn't throw his career into the dirt.
He's a very respected fellow, though, yes, I think the mainstreamers
will make sure not to ref his work, and CSICOP long ago turned his
picture to the wall and simply won't discuss him or his results. In
my book, this last is mute testimonial to the power of his data. Got
those bozos on the run, it did.)

- -=d=-

- -------------
Moderator's Note: In other words, nobody in the "official" field will
have him any more -- in other words, he threw his academically
approved career into the dirt. :-) But he got a better and more
interesting one as a result. -- PJ


Date: Sat, 04 Apr 1998 00:48:08 -1000
From: Yaana Allen <yaana@aloha.net>
Subject: Re: [VWR]-Digest: V2 #73

PJ:
> Interesting. To ramble a bit (this subject interests me)....

Yaana: Me too, like trecking through uncharted territory : )

> I think in my own case -- though I have far less experience than you
> have in these studies -- I have not actually seen the "subconscious"
> demonstrated as anything more than what I might call "a model for
> how to think about a part of the Self."

hummmmm... "seen it demonstarted" I think that is a bit beyond our
ability at the time, we are still dealing with observations and
duplication of phenomena, demonstrations seem to still come from
personal experiences and are subject ot AOL. I started in Esoteric
Psycology with a spiritual model, Physical, Emotional, Mental, and
Intutive.. each a dynamic aspect of being.. and the cycles of energy
moving from inertia through activity to seek balance, also that all
thought is dynamic and have have instanious effect on physical
reality . The model works well on may levels but is rife with
mysticism and spiritual jargon which obscures the simplicity of
function and until or unless the concepts are experineced they are
just another set of beliefs requiring faith. The new model Ihave
learned studing RV with Rainfall is scientific, wave forms, band
widths, frequency resonance, electromagnetic wave theory, this is a
very clean model which makes training the mind much easier, because
it steps outside of the common ego triggers which accompany,
religion, phlosophy, and psycology. It is great to see that in the
last decade that quantum physics and other aspects of science now
have formulas which prove the ancient spiritual laws, including one
published in the last few years which porports to prove the
existance of God.

> snip-- because I think the 'sub' is larger
> and more complex than what can easily be described.

I agree whole heartedly, as the new things I am learning merge with
and sort out the old the sub appears to be the dynamic aspect of
limitless consciousness which responds literally to our every thought
and intention (sort of like letting the geni out of the bottle, but
not yet having the wisdom to direct it constructively so we create
alot of chaos in our ignorance, both in our bodies and in our
worlds). I have come to feel that alot of what people call guidance
is actually finally letting data in from the sub, part of our own
magnificence we have trouble accepting, I have also experienced
sub-space beings.. but that is another story.

> it still sort of implies
> "a separate thing over there someone taps into from over here" that
> again steps outside the way I conceptualize things. That's just me.

Interesting, since RV'ing I have come to experience my sub as what
some call the higher self, an individulized identiy (me) which lives
in an enviornment where it is seprate from nothing it chooses to
experience, kind of the all-one concept. it seems a contradiction, to
be individualized yet not capable of being seperate, sort of like a
particular frequency or harmonic of a frequency within a wave form,
seprate but inseprable. it is the inseprability which give it instant
access to anything knowable.

> I also sense that there are many "Aspects of Self" which we relegate
> to the term "subconscious" because to us, "it ain't conscious so it
> must be subconscious." snip..
> (Tell most people there are "different levels of reality" and they'll
> just look at you as if you are very strange. <g>)

Hahaha... yes I know what you mean, I think it is easy to confuse the
sub-conscious with unconscious, where all things we are not yet
willing to experience are stored.. or is that stuffed.

....snip.. Sometimes you KNOW with a deep knowing you're right. But
these different levels of "imagination/perception" are difficult to
tell

> apart, and in many cases impossible, even for experts. It is
> possible that these processes or parts of the mind -- and even the
> mere functions of perception vs. creation -- are simply not as
> separate as we think, and perhaps that's why there is confusion.

Yes our ego's are so tricky, having to interpet everything so it can
feel inportant LOLThere is nothing more humbling than to see your
sked laid out next to the target and there are not excuses. It
sounds as if the theories behind our trainings have been different..
(what a suprise..LOL) Ihear many people say there is not way to tell
the difference between accurate data and imgination, but I was
trained in one methd for regression work and have learned a second in
RV.

> I think what I'm getting to (to bring this back to RV) is that I
> don't assume the subconscious never filters or alters data, or that
> it is totally innocent of any form of analysis -- though it may be a
> different type or level of it than the conscious mind uses. For
> instance I think there are archetypal symbols that the subconscious
> recognizes and responds to that the conscious may have no clue about.
> In order to recognize anything, there has to be judgement, there has
> to be exclusion of alternate potentials -- that is, a form of
> analysis.

I think that the sub uses archtyes to try and communicate to us
thorugh our prejudices.To parapharase Rainfall, " RV is a
communication skill, once you begin to develop this skill, your sub
has been waiting along time to talk to you. " I kind of see the sub
like someone trying to talk to us, but we either do not listen or
distort everything it says and turn it into something else, we have
all known people like this, we generally avoid them, but our subs are
tied to us and can't get a way.. so they just keep tryng to get us to
wake up.

> You ask the subconscious a question about something and it gives you
> an answer -- regardless of whether the conscious is supposedly in
> abeyance in hypnosis, the fact that the subconscious used words to
> describe it, labels and terms, indicates that it is being fairly
> judgemental about what is what and is translating all of that into
> consciously recognized symbols and terms. It would be pretty
> difficult at any point to have the subconscious communicate in such a
> way as to be tested WITHOUT having some degree of consciousness
> present in the individual.... tough to separate them for measurement.

My experience is that the sub communicates in pictures, feelings and
sensations, the words and lables come from the conscious trying to
interpet and understand what all the sensory data means.

> It is also possible that as "Beings" our "subconscious" is just as
> frequency-specific as our conscious (though perhaps with a wider
> band), and so may have its own filter -- it's just that THAT filter
> may be larger than our "conscious" one, so comparatively it seems
> like it doesn't have one.

That is very possible PJ, everything has a counterpart of some sort.
"As above so below"

> I think what I'm saying here sums up to "I don't really know." I
> just can't assume anything about the subconscious. I think that's a
> label that has allowed a humongous heap of separate things to be
> classified as if it's one thing with one set of characteristics, and
> that can be misleading. It's a sort of purity to assume the
> "subconscious" is just totally innocent and always right, and who
> knows, maybe it's true.

I agree, this kind of discussion is a stimulating exchange of ideas
and personal experiences but can we know anything for sure. All we
have are models which seem to be reasonable based on our observations
and experiences. What seems to be reasonable for one may seem like
your a candidate for prozac to another LOL.

Thanks for the thought provoking discussion PJ.
Aloha Yaana

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