Remote Viewing

Joseph W. McMoneagle

The End of the Line / Sightings on the Radio
with Jeff Rense

Sunday, March 2nd, 1997 8:00pm - 11:00pm Pacific Time

Featured Guests
Dr. Edwin C. May and Joseph W. McMoneagle

Transcript File 2 of Total 7

Transcribed by PJ Gaenir,

Transcribed from audio cassette which was courtesy of Jeff Rense.

This is a "general" transcript. It does not include every syllable.

File 2 of 7 in this series.

Continued from previous file.

RENSE: Where were the six viewers working out of most of the time?

MAY: Most of the time, the six viewers were working out of a barracks-like building in Fort Meade Maryland. Fort Meade is an Army post, adjacent to a very famous place called the National Security Agency. But at Fort Meade themselves, that's where they worked out of offices there.

RENSE: Did you have direct contact with them during the height of their career, so to speak?

MAY: Yes.

RENSE: And how did that contact take place?

MAY: My role, and our laboratory's role, after the Army remote viewers were established, was in support. We were there to answer any questions, from a research point of view. For example, somebody'd say well, 'gee, what color should you paint the office to get the best remote viewing?' to take a trivial point. Or 'how long should someone attempt to do remote viewing in a given day before they burn out?' Those kinds of day-to-day work-a-day questions, they would ask us to investigate in the laboratory. As a support role to their overall intelligence mission.

RENSE: You were not involved in analysis of what they were actually trying to view, then.

MAY: In the intelligence gathering, no, there are officials within the government whose sole job it is to do just that. In fact, it's very interesting Jeff, let's suppose you were one of those government remote viewers, and you said, 'Well, I think this underground facility, they're making chemical warfare bombs under there.' That data will get written up in what's called an 'intelligence report,' an IR, and the fact that that data was gathered from remote viewing is taken away from, it is not included in the information, it just says 'we know about this information.' And that goes off to analysts. So often people who were charged with responsibility to do the analysis don't know that it was remote viewing data.

RENSE: Interesting. What does an actual session look like? What does a person do? Does a person sit quietly in a room alone, does a person sit with someone else and talk, how does it actually play out?

MAY: Well in the lab the way we work it, it's very businesslike, and frankly a little bit boring. You're sitting across from each other at a table, like a desk with a well-lit room, and the remote viewer has a pen and a big pad of paper, and the person sitting with that remote viewer is called a 'monitor,' somebody who's gonna watch over what's happening. And it's very important in the laboratory that that monitor has no idea what the target material is, in a given remote viewing session. And so if you and I were doing this across the table from each other, I would say, 'OK Jeff, a target's been chosen, neither one of us know what it is, I'd like you to describe and draw in pictures on your paper there, what's in your mind with regard to what that picture might be. And that's all there is to it.

RENSE: And the picture could be locked away in another room somewhere.

MAY: Or across the country. Yes.

RENSE: Well what's the problem if the monitor knows the answer?

MAY: Well that's a very important question, because some of the people who are making claims and charging you $3,000 for remote viewing training -- if the monitor knows the target material, as in some of these cases that are being advertised these days, then there are other ways that the monitor can let you know (you the psychic, or you the remote viewer) what the target material is. So you don't have to use your psychic ability. And I'm not talking now about cheating and slipping you pieces of paper under the table. It's well known that, especially if people know each other, that we communicate with each other many many ways which are non-verbal. And this sounds a little bit far-fetched, but remote viewing is even more far-fetched {laughs}, so it doesn't take many ways of signalling to you, even if you're not trying. For example let's suppose I know the target, and I know the target's a photograph of a waterfall, alright? And I'm trying to be really careful not to give you any subtle cues. And you say, 'Well I see water there.' And I'm thinking to myself, 'Oh boy, Jeff's got it right!' and I lean forward ever so slightly in my chair. [RENSE: Body language.] Got it? [RENSE: Yeah.]

RENSE: That's very interesting -- so it has to be double blind, locked.

MAY: Absolutely. It must be, both in a training environment, and in a research environment, and in an operational, where you're doing this for remote viewing espionage, it absolutely has to always be double-blind, or it's not valid science.

RENSE: Alright, we're gonna take another break and remember, hour number two coming up, Joe McMoneagle will join us, one of the original six who was with the program with the military for all of its years of existence, and he'll have some amazing insight into what it's like to be a remote viewer. And we'll be back with Dr. Ed May in just a couple of minutes.


RENSE: Alright welcome back everyone, talking to Dr. Ed May, PhD, who has been involved in parapsychological research and remote viewing programs for a long, long time, one of the founding fathers of the whole movement, and let me ask you another question, not to digress but, do we have any evidence from your work that we can, as individuals, control or influence the thoughts and minds of others around us?

MAY: Well first of all, that's an easy question to answer in a trivial sense. And that is, if I'm sitting in front of you and you're a friend of mine, I can easily "influence" you to come with me to the ball game, or go out for a glass of beer after work or something like that. And that seems to be fine, because I can mount my arguments very persuasively, or I'm a fun guy to go out and have a beer with. That's not what you're talking about. That is 'can I hang up this phone and somehow influence you to call me at another time?' [RENSE: That's right.] Doesn't seem there is that ability.

RENSE: Would you tell me if there were?

MAY: Yes I definitely would. I spent the major part of my earlier career in parapsychology looking at what is called "psychokinesis." To translate that from the greek it means "movement by the mind," or of the mind.

RENSE: Right. Did you find any influence to substantiate that?

MAY: {sighs} I frankly have not. Now there are other people in our field that might disagree with me. But my assessment of the data that I've seen in other laboratories, and experiments I've conducted myself, and those experiments which I've analyzed both in China, and in Russia, and in Hungary, and in Poland -- I don't think it's real.

RENSE: So, you see ads occasionally, "how to influence others around you with your thoughts," this is an old shtick that's been around for a long time [MAY: Right.]. But from a scientific standpoint you have found, you're gonna stand on this, you found no evidence that we can, even though we can obviously remote view successfully, maybe up to 40, 50% of the time, we cannot control, implant or influence the thoughts of others in our lives, or even unbeknownst to us?

MAY: At this point, that's what the evidence forces me to say. Now I have to say, as a curious scientist, I wish that weren't the case. Wouldn't it be interesting if somehow thinking about things could influence the real world? But our data doesn't support that just yet. Another point though, that is very serious: if we're speaking about evolutionary things, if you passively can gather information about your surroundings to optimize your survival, if I do that, that doesn't threaten you. But suppose I could influence you with my mind, and then it becomes a battle, that maybe I'm stronger than you are, or you're stronger than me, we get into a psychic mind-fight if it's real -- and that isn't optimized for anybody's survival. So even if it did exist, I think it would just by natural selection go away.

RENSE: Such a big field, parapsychology. People who bend things, psychokinetic powers and so forth, are... charlatans? Frauds?

MAY: Well, I think there are people who believe they can bend stuff. I mean there are some, what are so-called "PK Parties" where everybody gets together, following the model of Mr. Uri Geller the Israeli magician who claimed to be able to bend stuff, and gosh, get whipped up into a frenzy and everybody's saying 'bend and bend and bend,' and the experience is that you don't know how much actual force that you're putting on this metal. So I have to say that those things are all done under such uncontrolled conditions, even if it were happening, you couldn't verify that it was true. And frankly I don't think it is happening.

RENSE: Have you ever had any remote viewing experiences yourself? Or have you been strictly the scientist overseeing this? Do you consider yourself psychic in any fashion?

MAY: I wish it were true, I think you could be a better scientist. What we try to do is to maintain at least some air of objectivity. Now having said that, I always ask my staff and myself to act as a remote viewer to test out any given protocol that we're going to ask real remote viewers to do. And sometimes I think I have some small ability, but I think lots of people -- for example, we were speaking about this remote viewing being an ability, well there aren't very many Yasha Heifitz's in the world that can play a violin, but almost all of us can make a violin squeak. So it's in that sense... [indecipherable]

RENSE: So the squeakers are the ones who line up to pay the $3000 for the 10 day RV courses, to teach the public and the average individual how to remote view, because we can all do it to a small degree, but how well developed that potential can actually become is such a highly individualized idea that it doesn't make sense.

MAY: That's exactly right, and in fact I have a great problem with those charging so much money for something that -- the government paid me a lot of money, actually, to find out whether you could train remote viewing, and we found -- because obviously they'd have a need, they'd like to go train psychic spies {laughs} [RENSE: Sure.] -- and so we looked at hundreds of different training routines and schemes and what have you, and I must say, I'm sad to report that we found no evidence to date that you could actually train remote viewing.

RENSE: Wow. None.

MAY: None.

RENSE: OK. You heard it from Dr. Edwin May, and we'll be right back with more, in just a couple of moments.


RENSE: Ok we're back, talking with Dr. Ed May, PhD about remote viewing. You can't teach it Ed, that's what you said.

MAY: Well, that's true, but let me add a slight hesitation on that. Let's suppose I can't teach you to become Yasha Heifitz if you don't have that natural gift --

RENSE: But you can sure help develop my potential.

MAY: That's right, and I can certainly teach you from going to squeaks to at least a recognizeable tune. In that sense, I could give you pointers; I think I would be wholly unethical if I asked you to pay me $3000 to do that, 'cause I could give you enough pointers in about a paragraph to go ahead and try it on your own.

RENSE: Yeah, the average person I understand can go through the simple protocols pretty quickly and easily, correct?

MAY: Yes, that's correct.

RENSE: OK. So, some people are born with an ability which is extraordinary, which allows them to actually acquire a target, up to 40 and 50% of the time. Now, let's take the best case scenario which I just described, someone who has a tremendous ability, a prodigious talent in this remote viewing field, they can acquire a target 40 to 50% of the time, what is the percentage of accuracy in that 40 or 50%? How much of the target are they getting?

MAY: Well, as you can well imagine, we've developed measures that are quite precise to answer that exact question. About 15% of the time, of those really correct answers, [they] are so accurate you would think that the person traced the target photograph. Now in the field, for intelligence purposes, where we can actually test those techniques on similar kinds of targets in the United States, like often our government might want to know if a facility had a high energy laser weapon in there, or chemical weapons system, we can test this by targeting remote viewers against similar facilities here in the US. There we can get exact measures. And what we found out, like Mr. McMoneagle who you'll talk to soon, he was running consistently, 80% of what he said was correct on the target, and he described correctly about 80% of what was in the target.

RENSE: Phenomenal.

MAY: That IS phenomenal.

RENSE: How is Joe -- he's on this program tonight -- why is Joe on the loose? Why isn't Mr. McMoneagle under contract, long term for life, by the intelligence agencies?

MAY: Well he is with me. I wish we were both under contract with the government.

RENSE: Oh. Well we're gonna talk to him just after the newsbreak in a couple of minutes, and ask him about some of the extraordinary things, those that he can talk about tonight -- again, both of my guests tonight are under national security restrictions to talk about a whole lot, but we've gotten an awful lot Dr. May from you this first hour, Joe McMoneagle will join us now in hour #2, you're going to stay with us in hour number two, we'll try and get some calls. Is the government today as interested in remote viewing as it was five or ten years ago?

MAY: Sadly, I don't think so. You know one can always say well Ed gee, they really are they're just not telling you about it, and of course that's always possible

RENSE: How possible is that?

MAY: Unlikely, because, at least, I know quite well most of the US's best psychics or remote viewers, and none of them have been contacted that I know.

RENSE: So it would be difficult to put one past you, then.

MAY: It would be difficult.

RENSE: OK. So why isn't the government as interested now as it used to be?

MAY: Well the world's changed. We don't have a strategic adversary like the Soviet Union. Now the questions we're asking are things like gee, where is that terrorist bomber, and who did the Oklahoma bombing case and so on. And those questions are a little harder to answer by Remote Viewing, that's one problem, and another one is, we're all concerned about shrinking budgets, correctly, we don't want the government to spend as much of our money as they used to in days gone by. So there's less funds and there's more competition.

Next transcript section

This is file 2 of 7 in a series

Transcribed by PJ Gaenir,
PJ Gaenir's Firedocs Remote Viewing Collection:


Jeff Rense Sightings on the Radio web site:

Dr. Edwin C. May is the Director of, and Joseph W. McMoneagle an associated of, the Cognitive Sciences Laboratory:

The Firedocs Remote Viewing Collection features Joseph McMoneagle here.
You can get Joe's book at major booksellers or: 1-800-766-8009

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Joseph W. McMoneagle