firedocs transcript

SIGHTINGS ON THE RADIO on the Premiere Radio Network
Sightings on the Radio Web Site:
Live/archived shows:

Sunday, June 1st, 1997
8:00pm - 11:00pm Pacific Time

...Talks about remote viewing, near-death experiences, the future, and about his book
MIND TREK: Exploring Consciousness, Time and Space Through REMOTE VIEWING
Hampton Roads Publishing ISBN 1-878901-72-9 or order directly at (800) 766-8009

Host Email:

Transcribed from Real Audio, see:
Transcribed by PJ Gaenir,

Transcriber notes: This is a "general" transcript. It does not include every syllable.

[begin transcript]

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JEFF: Good evening once again everybody, I'm Jeff Rense, and welcome back to another edition of "Sightings on the Radio." Without question, one of the most amazing revelations to ever emerge in the intelligence community in many many years, was the news a couple of years ago that the CIA had been actively involved in a long-term project to develop and to use a psychic technique called "remote viewing." This ultra-secret program used a very small number of gifted individuals who were naturally psychically talented, and then further trained under strict protocols to be able to mentally locate and to describe targets anywhere in the world by simply sitting in a room and using their minds. For those of you who listen to this program regularly, you may recall that I've done several programs on this mind-stretching subject, and I'm very pleased to have back once again tonight as my guest the most renowned and honored remote viewer this country has ever had. Mr. Joseph McMoneagle. Hi Joe, how are you?

JOE: How you doing Jeff?

JEFF: Fine, thank you very much. If you'll bear with me I want to do a little more setup and background on you for our listeners tonight.

JOE: Sure.

JEFF: Joe McMoneagle, for those of you who don't know, was one of the six original CIA remote viewers, and the only remote viewer who stayed in the military program for the entire period of its existence, from October of 1978 all the way through November of 1995. Joe is also one of only two remote viewers who worked on both the acquiring of remote viewing data and the research and development part of that program. He has done over 4000 remote viewings under strict protocols and controls, and his statistics in 19 years are just phenomenal. Out of any 100 targets, Joe McMoneagle can be expected to hit the target 55-60% of the time. Of the targets he actually hits on, Joe will acquire, on average, from 45 to 85 correct percentage of information. Of the targets he hits on, about 20% of the drawings he makes from remote viewing of the target will actually line up as nearly perfect overlays, over the photographs, of the actual target. Truly an incredible achievement. Joe has even done highly successful remote viewing demonstrations on a number of live television programs, including one for British TV just a couple of months ago. In fact, Joe McMoneagle is so effective at remote viewing, that he was honored by being awarded the Legion of Merit, the highest honor the intelligence community can bestow upon anyone. Remote Viewing was allegedly, officially dropped, and discontinued by the government in 1995. But there are many who scoff at that as nothing less than disinformation, for reasons that will become even more obvious during tonight's program. After the program was allegedly disbanded, Joe has continued to work with Dr. Ed May, at the Cognitive Sciences Lab in Palo Alto, California, and is the executive director of his own private consulting company, called Intuitive Intelligence Applications, located in Virginia. Joe's remarkable book called MIND TREK has just been reprinted, and we are happy to say it is available in most bookstores, and is considered by many to be an indispensible treatise on this amazing mental and psychic technology.

JEFF: We all, Joe, have intuitive flashes and feelings or hunches about things that we really shouldn't know about. Are these what we would call commonly psychic abilities?

JOE: Yeah, what we've found or discovered through the research side is that probably nearly every human being that walks the face of the planet probably has some psychic functioning. And most of the time it's usually very spontaneous.

JEFF: Most all of us can run the 100 yard dash, too, or shoot basketballs or play tennis, but many of us, you know, have different levels of competence in those, is the same thing applicable to remote viewers?

JOE: Yeah, what we find is that probably based on your experiences in life up until the point of being introduced to remote viewing, that's probably what conditions you as to the degree of talent, or you know, your natural ability that will come through when you're tested.

JEFF: There is much talk about people being "trained" to remote view, we'll discuss that at great length as the program develops, there are now home video courses and all that, is this a technique, is this an ability that the average person can develop to some degree given proper training and discipline?

JOE: Well actually, the training probably has more to do with the development of the protocol, teaching people what not to do, there's a certain structure that can be taught that assists people in dealing with the information in their mind. But all human beings, cognitively speaking, are probably treated differently, based on our own experiences, we all think things differently or analyze things differently, so, to a certain extent you can help someone polish their talent, but I wouldn't expect to see a great, any great improvement over what the talent level might be in the individual at the outset.

JEFF: Really marginal then.

JOE: Well, you think of it as a martial art of the mind if you will. Certainly a martial artist doesn't spend a few weeks developing his skill, or her skill; the same thing holds true with the mind. If you're going to really improve the psychic ability of someone, then they essentially have to be reconditioned. And reconditioning usually takes years of practice and training.

JEFF: You've been involved in martial arts yourself I guess for about 40 years now, and remote viewing, and you call it sometimes "a mental martial art," is that pretty accurate? What do people NOT want to do, you mentioned what they are not 'supposed' to do during a session, what are some of the simple things to avoid? We're talking again about the long-term training here, or martial arts idea, what "don't" people want to do in training?

JOE: Well one of the, some of the minor things that are easily learned, you want to refrain from jumping to conclusions about your input, the targets have a tendency, the information concerning the targets have a way of coming in in a very fractured way, and a lot of people when they get a little information have a tendency to jump ahead or try to conclude something from that information. In terms of reconditioning, it takes essentially just a lot of practice, and what you'll find is you can learn almost as much from failure as success, so paying attention and developing your own technique is probably more important than trying to follow some recipe that's been developed by someone.

JEFF: That's interesting, you can learn almost as much from failures as success, I guess this really requires some suspension of ego doesn't it?

JOE: Yeah, that's a constant battle, and most of the very good remote viewers that I've known in my life have consistently dealt with that as an issue. It's not something that goes away, I don't think you ever really get a leg up on that so to speak, it's something you just have to deal with --

JEFF: Unless you become a zen buddhist.

JOE: [laughs] Right, exactly, [indecipherable] wouldn't help.

JEFF: I would think. Do you have a certain code, that you follow as a remote viewer that you can discuss with us, a code of behavior, a mental conditioning exercise, or any parameters you've learned to impose upon your work?

JOE: Well, that covers a whole gamut of things. In terms of code, I guess top of the list would be one of ethics. I have a very strict ethical sense in terms of what I target or what I don't target. If I have a sense that I'm, you know, even getting something spontaneously about an individual, let's say, I would probably never even discuss that even with the individual, unless I had been previously asked by that individual to talk about it. What I target and when I target it is very critical to me, in terms of the righteousness of the target. I've had a lot of people that have asked me to do things that border, for instance, on industrial espionage, that sort of thing, and I just will not participate in those kinds of targets.

JEFF: I would assume that there are people out there who have trained in this psychic profession if you will who are hired guns who might be able to do that kind of thing, for some people, for a fee, is that right?

JOE: Well, one of the things that is true, there's a misconception that's held by many that you have to be a good person in order to develop psychically, and I'm sorry to say that that just isn't true. Anyone can develop psychic talent whether it's for good reasons or bad reasons. However, people who have a tendency to develop it for negative or what I would call destructive purposes, usually don't develop in a philosophic way, so their talent may be limited somewhat in that growth area. Seems like people who go to the positive or constructive way do a lot better in the long run.

JEFF: Interesting. You spent 14 years in Asia, during a long and illustrious military career working in the US Army security agency, a lot of dangerous work for you. Did you have any extraordinary abilities along these lines that you feel may have saved your life during those years of service?

JOE: Well, in the 14 years I was in Asia as well as Europe, from one theater to the other. Certainly in a lot of my military career, I spent a lot of time in areas where, you know, danger might have been a little more real than others --

JEFF: Yes, let me ask you to hold it right there Joe, we're going to take our first break, we'll be right back with Joseph McMoneagle, here at Sightings on the Radio.


[Real Audio Counter: 14:14:0]

JEFF: And we're back, talking with Joe McMoneagle tonight about remote viewing. Joe, during your 14 years in Asia and Europe working under very secret conditions, high stress, did you at that time realize that you had a psychic ability that may have been involved in keeping you safe and secure much of the time?

JOE: No, I wouldn't say so, although it was probably operating the entire time. I went under what I call gut feelings, I made my decisions usually by how I felt, and when they seemed to go against the grain and turned out to be correct, it was usually because I had a gut feeling, or at least that's what I would call it. One of the interesting things is, I think the Army became interested in this, as a result of studying some of those unique people in the field, such as people who would walk Point, or EOD kind of people, or Air-Sea Rescue kinds of people, who were imminently successful and never seemed to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, in the hopes of discovering how they could do that; I think many of these people were very psychic.

JEFF: So the military was aware that there were a number of soldiers that seemed to have psychic abilities that actually ensured their survival, and that's what peaked their curiosity.

JOE: Right, exactly. That and the work that had been done in the very early 70's at SRI with the CIA.

JEFF: Right. I think what we should do now before we -- there are so many things to talk about -- but for those who haven't heard you before on this program, let's define what remote viewing is, what is the common understanding of it, and how does it work and what's it used for most Joe.

JOE: Well first you have to define 'remote viewing' as different from psychic functioning, in that remote viewing is supposed to be done under control. [JEFF: Right.] That means that a formal protocol's been developed that is always in effect. Remote Viewing itself is the ability of someone to describe a person, place, event, or object that is remote from them, for which they have no previous knowledge. And that's usually done under a very strict control, in which the remote viewer as well as anyone else in the room is blind to the target, and the way the target is targeted is blind, you know, so there's no ability to know something about the target ahead of time.

JEFF: How much of a target do they give you? You're in a room, you're under the strict procedures that are followed, what information are you given, and I understand that most of the things you worked with of course remain certainly under the secret umbrella so we can't talk about a lot of it, but give me an example of how target information is given to you and what you would come up with.

JOE: Ok, as an example, just one of the things that's been talked about was the typhoon submarine that was developed by the Russians. At the time, they knew something was being constructed in a certain building at [unclear] Russia, and they had no idea what it was, so to target remote viewers against that building what they essentially did was just take a picture of the roof, and they would show us a picture of the roof and say "tell us something about what's going on inside this building."

JEFF: That's it.

JOE: That's it. And from that we were able to draw some very detailed drawings of a submarine that had never been seen before.

JEFF: Well you're saying that "we" were able to do that, you mean the six Viewers that were in the program?

JOE: I and a number of other Viewers, yes.

JEFF: I see. So a monitor, or a procter, or a liason would come in, show you a picture, I would assume that that person did not, him or herself, know what that picture was relating to, is that correct?

JOE: That's correct. And there's a reason for that, that's very important. The person that brings the photo in and shows it to the Viewer can't know anything about it for two reasons. One is, we talk in a whole lot of ways to each other as human beings, you know, aside from using our voices, or language, we have body language, you know, the way we shift in a chair or scratch our heads says a lot about what's going on [JEFF: Sure.], so you don't want to 'dirty' the information by having someone prompting someone, even subconsciously. The second reason is, what we found, especially in the research side, is that the facilitator in the room with the remote viewer inevitably will ask the right question at precisely the right time during the remote viewing. So in effect, the person asking the questions is being as psychic as the remote viewer. While there's a lot of discussion about how many people believe that's true, the fact is true. They just inevitably seem to ask just exactly the right question when it's necessary.

JEFF: Hmmn. So, when we walk into a room full of people and often come away with feelings about some of those people, or all of them, we are actually not necessarily doing anything or experiencing anything psychic, we're tuning in on our own normal senses that are looking and feeling and processing information without our conscious awareness of it.

JOE: That's correct; the average human being is extremely sensitive to their environment, and that includes other human beings within their environment. And you'll notice when you're talking to someone and you're standing face to face with them, there's certain body language that they'll give you as you're talking to them, maybe the subject's a sensitive one [JEFF: Yes...] and the person will cross their arms or something, you know, that's a subconscious signal that they don't want to discuss it maybe [JEFF: Uh huh.]. We don't even know we're processing that, in a subconscious way, but they are.

JEFF: And they also won't look you in the eyes, or avert it, or a lot of things.

JOE: Sure. Well you know, there's the old belief that, "Well this person's lying, because they won't look me in the eye"

JEFF: Not necessarily true, right?

JOE: No, not necessarily, but it may just be that the person doesn't want to discuss that particular subject.

JEFF: Or is shy. [JOE: Exactly.] Many reasons. [JOE: Yeah.]

JEFF: As far as remote viewing and how it works and so forth, what is it like to sit there and mentally try to acquire a target? Is it emotionally draining? Is it meditative in nature? How does it actually feel to you?

JOE: Well actually, initially, when you of course are first learning to do this, when you're first exposed to it, there's a lot of trepidation about it. You're very nervous, you have a great deal of performance expectation, pressure, that sort of thing. [JEFF: Yes.] So it's very difficult to try to clear all that out of your mind and open to whatever the information might be. As you progress in your experience, in other words, practice of the remote viewing over many years period of time, or at least over many months, a person becomes more comfortable with the fact that the information is there, and they come to a point where they rely on it, and it's not quite so difficult. I think the important point here is that every human being is coming out of a different conditioning when they're first exposed to remote viewing, so many people will be more nervous than others, depending on how they feel about the remote viewing itself.

JEFF: I would imagine the first couple of successes have to be pretty exhilarating.

JOE: Well actually, the people that are first exposed to remote viewing, inherently do better than they do later. And I think one of the reasons why is the ego part of the mind says 'Geez you know, I don't understand what's going on here, so I think I'll just step back and watch.' [JEFF: I see.] And the person allows the subconscious to deliver the information, they don't analyze it, they just present it, it turns out to be very accurate, and it kind of scares them a little bit. Then the ego says 'Wait a minute, I now know what's going on, I'm in control here', will step back in and try to control things, and the remote viewing effort will then deteriorate.

JEFF: And so the protocols, as much as any, if I read you correctly, are learning how to keep the ego out.

JOE: Well that's the method. The protocol has more to do with, sort of the steps that are taken to ensure that the target is blind, that the way the target is presented to the remote viewer doesn't cue them in any way; what the Viewer actually does, during the remote viewing, would be called more of a 'method.' So there's a lot of confusion about that, particularly with people being trained, there's a lot of methodologies for doing psychic functioning under remote viewing protocol, and there's some confusion in that some people mix a lot of those methods together, and want to call those methods actual protocols, when in fact they're not.

JEFF: Yeah there are, um we gotta take a break, but there are a number of different names for a number of allegedly different 'types' of remote viewing, that people marketing it are using, and we'll talk a little bit about that, and much more, with Joseph McMoneagle here, at Sightings on the Radio, as we continue in just a couple of minutes.


[Real Audio Counter: 26:14:0]

JEFF: This is Jeff Rense, this is Sightings on the Radio, my guest tonight Joseph McMoneagle, America's greatest, most well known and renowned remote viewer, now in private practice. Remote viewing remains, as this program continues, the only topic for tonight, we are talking with Joe about many things. I want to ask you a little more about the actual process Joe, when you're sitting in a room and you're trying to acquire the target, how do you express the information that you are able to access, is it all in drawings, do you write, do you speak into a tape recorder ever, do you simply relate it to other people, or are there certain techniques which are mandatory that has to be followed there?

JOE: There's no specific technique that has to be followed, unless you're wedded to a certain methodology. In my particular case, what I generally do is, I have a tape recorder running, so there's certainly a verbal record of what I'm perceiving --

JEFF: And you're just talking.

JOE: Right, I'm just talking, I'm just trying to describe elements or parts or pieces of the target. At the same time, I will be doing some preliminary sketches perhaps, to try to organize those parts or pieces in some legitimate way. When I'm through, usually what I do is go back through and then try to generate a final drawing or a finished drawing. And of course this can vary depending on my connection to the target at the time.

JEFF: Back to the typhoon submarine, you were given a picture of a building roof I guess it was [JOE: Right.], how did you express the information in that particular exercise?

JOE: In that particular exercise, I talked a great deal about the shape of what was being constructed, the fact that it had a double hull, that I saw lots of lights of lights flashing which indicated to me that there was some form of welding or steel work going on; it was a unique form of welding too, so I went into great detail describing that; I saw canted missile tubes, that were on essentially a back deck --

JEFF: Did you know at the time this was a submarine you were viewing?

JOE: No, I had no idea at the time. It was mostly descriptive. And at the end of that particular effort, I then spent probably about an hour trying to put those details into a drawn format, and when I got through drawing it, it appeared to be more like a sub than anything else. And the conclusion was that it was a submarine.

JEFF: Do you sit down and have post-RV session meetings with your superiors, and with your monitors that are working on this project with you? Do you say 'well here's what I've come up with and what do you think,' do you discuss it or do you just turn it in and that's it?

JOE: No, I'd just turn it in and that was it. Then it would be up to an independent judge, usually someone -- well, not usually, _always_ in most cases, someone who has no knowledge of the actual target, would try to do an analysis of the information, come up with a conclusion. That in turn was then passed to whoever was directly connected with the targeting effort, who knew more about the target and they in turn would take it and deliver the information to the people interested.

JEFF: What else were you able to determine about this new, high-tech, Soviet submarine in these sessions, were you able to pick a time when the submarine may actually become seaworthy, so to speak?

JOE: Well one of the problems we had was that just about every intelligence office in America that was working on the problem disagreed with us. Most of the consensus was that they were probably constructing a ship, but it was probably more of a troop carrier, or an assault ship that might be carrying helicopters, because the size of it seemed to be, I guess they were analyzing materials that were being delivered to the building or something --

JEFF: Yes...

JOE: And our conclusion remained 'submarine,' so we got kind of angry about it and said well, they're gonna launch this thing, and we gave 'em a launch date, and someone in the NSC was smart enough to take the information as cueing data and target other methodologies. And within 3 or 4 days of that launch date, they actually captured on film this new typhoon class submarine being rolled out of the building into the water.

JEFF: You had the last laugh so to speak then, didn't you.

JOE: Well yeah, and we were really excited about it, because it showed the real validity of remote viewing as more of a cueing methodology than it is even the data that you may collect. Which is far more valuable in intelligence terms than being able to provide data you can't prove.

JEFF: In all the years you were with the program, October '78 through November 1995, how many strict protocol remote viewing sessions did you undergo?

JOE: In the operational sense, where I was tasked with providing information on intelligence type targets, I probably did something in the neighborhood of two thousand two hundred, something like that. In the science side, or the research side, or the labs that I've worked for, I've probably produced another two thousand, anyway.

JEFF: Over four thousand. Were your statistics always good from the beginning, or did they get better as your career progressed?

JOE: Well, and this really speaks to the training part of it, statistically speaking, I was the same. From beginning to end. I never really improved I don't think, other than perhaps the amount of, the degree of accuracy when I was connected to the target. In terms of accessing the target, it never really got much about sixty percent at its best.

JEFF: Well I don't think there's much wrong with sixty percent.

JOE: Well a lot of people found that to be very low. [laughs] But the way I like to look at it is sort of like the alternative medicine doctor; once, you know, the normal medical people get through working on a patient and have declared them terminal and beyond hope, and have expended all possibility of helping the person, they turn them over to the alternative healer, and if the alternative healer saves 15-20% of the people they see [JEFF: Yes.], and that's a remarkable figure.

[JEFF: Yes indeed, yes.]

JEFF: You had a near-death-experience which changed your life, I think that we need to talk a little about that if you would. And where did that occur and what were the circumstances?

JOE: Well that occurred in 1970 when I was assigned to Germany. It actually occurred while I was in Austria, I was having dinner with my wife and some friends, and started feeling very badly, and when I excused myself to go outside for fresh air, because I was nauseous, as I went through the door I collapsed, went into convulsions, swallowed my tongue, and as a result stopped breathing, and by the time they got me to the hospital I was DOA. The entire time that -- for the entire length of time of that event, I was out of my body, observing the events, and followed them as they carried me to the hospital in the car, and watched the action in the emergency room. At some point I felt as though I was falling through a tunnel, and when I stopped falling, I had a sense of heat on the back of my neck, and when I turned around I was enveloped in the classical white light.

JEFF: What were your feelings, your emotions at the time, seeing yourself, the usual detached peace and happiness, did you feel liberated from all of it...?

JOE: Well initially what happens is you have a feeling of fear, because you don't know what's going on, and things don't seem to make any sense. [JEFF: I would think.] Immediately following, within a few seconds of that fear, you, through a rationalization process come to the conclusion that you're either dying or dead, and at that point it becomes one of curiosity. And eventually you even detach from the curiosity, it's a feeling of necessity to go somewhere, that you have other business, or you may be looking to where you need to go next, and then the envelopment by the white light usually resolves in the conclusion that you've met God, or --

JEFF: Universal consciousness.

JOE: Yeah, universal consciousness.

JEFF: Any anger in there at all Joe?

JOE: Um, no, not really, I had a sense of great disappointment at one point, where you know, you review your whole past life, it's sort of an instantaneous review of your life's actions --

JEFF: It does replay.

JOE: Oh yes. What's interesting is that it does replay in absolute detail, but it happens like a flash. And one of the most disappointing aspects of that is realizing your own personal, you know [JEFF: Shortcomings?] shortcomings, and the things that you wish you could have done better with in your life.

JEFF: Interesting. Ok we'll be right back with Joseph McMoneagle in just a couple of minutes, here on Sightings on the Radio.


[Real Audio Counter: 39:15.0]

JEFF: And welcome back, we're talking with Joseph McMoneagle, his new book -- actually reprinted book, we call it new because there are new chapters and material in it -- is called MIND TREK: Exploring Consciousness, Time, and Space Through Remote Viewing. And if you heard what I just said, exploring consciousness, time and space, we will get into lots of interesting areas as tonight's program progresses.

JEFF: Joe, Dannion Brinkley once told me that he had the same experience basically you did, he died twice, and his entire life flashed before him, and we've all heard this many times, did you feel, as your life flashed before you when you noticed your shortcomings and noticed the things you had done that you probably could have done better at, did you feel guilt at all?

JOE: No actually, I didn't feel any guilt, I just felt very badly for having missed a lot of the possibilities. For not being aware. It was sort of a -- I felt as though I were operating on automatic, like I was asleep. And it would have been a lot better if I had been awake. One of the other things I wanted to say is, while it's happening, you have a sense that you're not alone, that you're sharing the information with some other entity, but it's all done in an unconditional, loving atmosphere, and the unconditional love is so overwhelming, that even the smallest aspects of your faults become very very magnified, and so they're very disappointing. More than guilty.

JEFF: Hmmn. You feel like you want another chance?

JOE: Right -- well, you feel like, if you just, if you could have just been a little more aware of what you were doing at the time, it would have been a lot better.

JEFF: What did you see as the reason that kept you from that level of awareness, that you think you'd rather have had?

JOE: Ignorance, more than anything. [JEFF: Ego?] Yeah, that and up until that point in my life, I was very much a black and white person, you know, either things were one way or they were the other, and I was also extremely self centered to a certain degree, where if I didn't think someone else had anything of value they could share, then I wasn't interested. And I've since learned that, as my wife once astutely observed, what we need to do is, we need to like, look on the janitors the same way that we would look on say, the Dalai Lama, you know sort of a shared consciousness, or a shared realization that all human beings are important.

JEFF: Did you happen to notice or sense the reaction or sense the reactions and feelings of other people that had interacted with you during your last time -- up to that point, who had been hurt or disappointed by you?

JOE: Yeah. That all comes through as well. You actually see in review what their intentions were. And so there's this remarkable feeling of loss, that you may have missed that opportunity. That was particularly true with some experiences that I had had with my twin sister. And I was able, as a result of the experience, the near death experience, I was able to share a lot more with her before she passed away.

JEFF: I see. That's a pretty poignant story. Did you share any intuitive experiences with your twin sister while growing up?

JOE: No, I don't think any more than most sister-brothers.

JEFF: Uh huh. Sometimes they say twins do that though.

JOE: Well I do know that she was extremely sensitive, and as a result she was having the same experiences I was having. What's interesting is that she chose to view them as being very detrimental, and went the sort of normal route I guess, sought assistance from people that she knew to try to get rid of her visions, or her experiences, wound up in the psychiatric realm. [JEFF: Really.] Yeah, and I felt, I feel that that was very destructive, because for a long time she was misdiagnosed, and given some very powerful medications.

JEFF: Yeah. That's a whole 'nuther program, which I have done and I will do again in the future, and that's a very sore subject with me, the whole psychiatric industry, if you want to call it an industry at all.

JOE: Right, exactly.

JEFF: You were able to then, through the NDE, basically come to some level of understanding and enhance your relationship with your sister, which is very nice to hear, is that correct?

JOE: Yes, and not only, you know, her, but the rest of my sisters and my family, as well as just the people I worked with.

JEFF: The issue of dying and then being brought back, we haven't finished with the story but I wanted to ask, what caused this physical shutdown? It sounds like you may have been poisoned, it sounds like something may have happened, what was the actual genesis of the problem?

JOE: [pause] Well.... I usually don't go into a lot of detail about that.

JEFF: Alright well don't if you're uncomfortable, it's perfectly fine.

JOE: I, I suspect the reason, but I'd rather not go into that.

JEFF: Well okay, I think we can read into that whatever we want to then, and we'll leave it alone. As far as coming back into your body, you said you sensed the presence of other aliens, entities, supernatural beings, whatever you want to call them, were you told at some point by one or more of these presences that you would be returned to your body, that it was not your time, how did that work?

JOE: My sense was that all of the communication was with the single unconditional loving entity that was the light, and the very loud message was that I was not supposed to die, that I had to return. I did not _want_ to return. I was extremely comfortable, and it's a place that was very rewarding to be in. But regardless of my arguing, I found myself returning.

JEFF: Interesting. Alright Joe, hang on here and we'll be right back with more here, with Sightings on the Radio with Mr. Joe McMoneagle.


[Real Audio Counter: 49:13:0]

JEFF: And welcome back now to our remaining few minutes of the first hour with Joe McMoneagle. His book MIND TREK, published by Hampton Roads Publishing in 1993, reprinted in 1997, the book is full of absolutely fascinating information, one of the most important books that I have read in years, and I would urge all of you to get it, Joseph McMoneagle.

JEFF: Joe, when you were out of the body and told that you were going to come back, and you didn't really want to, which we've heard many times over the years from people who've had these NDEs, what really got you back into your body, do you remember that moment, was it just an instantaneous awareness that you were back into the physical confines of a frame?

JOE: In fact, it was a, almost an audible and physical "snap" kind of a sense, and I sat bolt upright in the bed. I was in the hospital, and I just had a sheet covering me, and when I sat up I shocked the poor German patient that was in the bed next to me. Of course started telling that person in broken German and English all about God and the white light, and he ran out and got a nurse, and it turned out I'd been comatose for quite some time. They were all surprised. And I learned very quickly as a result that no one wants to hear about white lights and God. The military intelligence people came and got me with a car the next day and took me to a rest home in Munich, and I spent a couple weeks there while they examined my brain tissue to find out how [many] of my brain cells had died as a result, and I learned very quickly that no one wants to hear about it, so I stopped talking about it.

JEFF: Hmmn. Very interesting. Did you find shortly thereafter that your view of life had changed dramatically because of your experience?

JOE: Oh absolutely. I started having what I call 'spontaneous knowings,' I would just know things before they happened, or I'd know what someone was going to say to me or what they were thinking --

JEFF: What, did this happen once a day, or once a week --

JOE: It would happen three or four times a day. Initially it was very strong, it was occurring quite frequently. Over a period of time, I guess because I started shutting them out, or redirecting my attention, they slowly ebbed. I certainly lost my fear of death as a result. Which, it does not take the Army long to figure that out. Some very dramatic changes, there's a couple unique things that happened that aren't generally talked about. One is, you go through a period of _extreme_ depression, for about a six month period I was trying to think of many ways of taking my own life, so I wouldn't have to be here in this [primitive?] world anymore.

JEFF: No kidding -- is this something that other people who have gone through NDE's have reported or that you've read about --

JOE: No, I think it probably happens with many of them and they just don't talk about that phase.

JEFF: Oh. How interesting.

JOE: One of the things that does occur somewhere in that six month period, you reach a bottom point in that depression where you suddenly realize that, well since you know that consciousness continues, and you don't really cease to exist as an individual, there's no real reason to be depressed about where you are. It sort of gives you a freedom to play. And by play I mean, be able to make decisions now based on how you actually feel things should be, versus based on fear. Which is a very relieving kind of --

JEFF: What a liberation. My goodness. That's remarkable. That's one of the things that depression -- though let's talk about the other one after we break for news here Joe, it is the top of the hour [other chatter about upcoming radio items]


[Real Audio Counter: 01:00:20]

JEFF: And welcome back to hour number two, I'm Jeff Rense, you're listening to Sightings on the Radio, on the Premiere Radio Network. My guest tonight Joseph McMoneagle, back for his third visit on the program. Always a wonderful experience talking to Joe, he has been through so many things in life, we are talking now about the near death experience he had in 1970. And he made the unusual remark, and I haven't heard this too often and he went through why, that he went through a very severe period of depression for about six months after the near death experience, and actually considered suicide at one point to try to get back to that state of utter peace and tranquility, and the embracing of the universal consciousness. What other things Joe, did you experience as a result of this near -- you can almost call it an _after_ death experience, I guess, couldn't you?

JOE: Right, you know in fact, that's probably a more correct term. Obviously since I'm still here I might not have been as near death as I think I was, but... one of the major effects that you don't normally talk about but actually happens with nearly everyone, you have a tendency to look at your spirituality differently. People either go one of two ways after a near death experience, they usually externalize their spirituality and seek support, say from their formal religion or a religious leader. And usually the response is somewhat parochial, or dogmatic. And some of the dogmatic parts don't hold up any longer under the experience.

JEFF: I wouldn't think so.

JOE: Many people as a result then internalize it, it then becomes a, they embrace it more as a matter of conscience, and that drives the primary issues which are then addressed, which might be anything, from what the limits of personal responsibility might be, or, the redefinition of good and evil to 'constructive versus destructive,' more, something even more importantly, the fact that science and spirituality essentially can't ignore one another, that we as human beings are essentially built in two parts, one part is the physical or the science side, and the other part is very definitely the spiritual side. Integrate our appreciation for awareness [unclear] is what that means.

JEFF: When you see the news, read the newspaper, and you come across stories of death, tragedies, plane crashes, wars, how do you feel about the people that die now?

JOE: I don't, I actually don't feel badly about some of the people that die, or most of the people that die. Where my pain really exists is with the people that are left behind. We become very attached to one another in a relationship way, and you can't but feel the pain a parent has to the loss of a child. You can't help but feel the pain that a husband and wife might have should one of them depart. I think it would be nice for them to know in reality though that their loved one continues to exist as a conscious entity, and with a full identity.

JEFF: I think it merits repeating that by way of a statement to anyone listening tonight, about death, because we spend so much time -- that may be the ultimate question of course, during our time on this plane, our conscious time -- in your opinion, there is absolutely no reason to fear death?

JOE: That's correct. In fact, many of our decisions in life are made based on that fear. [JEFF: Oh yes.] Our actions from our political leaders all the way down to the homeless person on the street, is making decisions on a moment to moment basis on that fear of death, instead of making them on the constructive or the destructive possibilities. There are certainly times when decisions are very tough to make. And if we can understand that we have a certain moral obligation to other human beings, then we can make a more righteous decision if we're making it based on that, versus our fears of what we might have to contend with if we made those decisions.

JEFF: How do you feel after your experience Joe, about the taking of human life, about murdering, about killing, in uniform, about the actual participation in the ending of someone's conscious life on this planet?

JOE: I have a great problem with that now. Personally [pause] I have done a lot of things as a soldier that I probably wouldn't do again. I think every human being has a right to change, however. My conviction is, the conviction to which I'm wedded at the moment, is that every human being has as much right to life as any other. I was once a great supporter of the death penalty for certain crimes. However, in my experience I've now changed that position. I think that no human being has the right to take the life of another human being. No matter what the crime is that they might have committed. You do have the right to control them, to put them in prison or to punish them, but we do not have the right to take their life.

JEFF: Without getting too far afield, because the topic tonight is remote viewing, though this is all really tied together of course, in one continuum, what about the idea of organized religion, oppressing people through this fear technique, how do you view that now?

JOE: Well there are certain things about organized religion that are very appealing to a lot of people. And I don't have any great problem with many of the organized religions, or you know, wherever two or three or more people gather together to worship, I don't have a problem with that concept. Where I have a problem is when that particular organization starts alluding to a god that's an angry god, or a god that would murder --

JEFF: A vengeful god.

JOE: Yes, right, that would decree that you'd have to go out and murder your own family or something, to appease them, that's a little bit on the ridiculous side.

JEFF: Or others to protect the religion from encroachment, or rival religions [JOE: Exactly], and so forth and so on.

JOE: One of the things I've learned, because I've pretty much internalized my spirituality, and have pursued this philosophically, and one of the conclusions that I've come to... um, let's see, the best way to present this would be: I've never clearly understood in my own lifetime how anyone could voluntarily walk to their own death. And certainly the holocaust brings us an example of that. I could never understand why someone would allow someone that was evil incarnate, a Hitler for instance, to put them to death without at least fighting back. I've since, I've come to the conclusion that however, evil incarnate is not best fought by participation. It's fought by a participation or involvement, a total involvement, in the good, or the positive. And the only real response to evil incarnate is to ignore it, in the display of a positive or righteous attitude. So since death, physical death is not an end unto itself, the most appropriate response is to essentially turn the other cheek, or to walk to death with a smile on your face, and I never understood that before, but I think I finally have come to grasp with that, and have a tremendous respect for the numbers of people that chose to honor the positive and the constructive and in doing so give their lives.

JEFF: The antithesis of that I guess would be suicide.

JOE: Right, exactly. Suicide in my opinion is probably the greatest waste of all, because the person that commits suicide is essentially saying they have no value. And I believe that everyone has value, even in the act of death.

JEFF: They're also saying that people around them essentially have no value either, to them.

JOE: That's correct. It's just the ultimate decision of ignorance perhaps. Or the ultimate decision of fear.

JEFF: Why, Joe, after all of this, experience and profound nature of what you've been through, why are we here?

JOE: You know, during my near death experience, the only thing that seemed to me was something that I was actually taking with me, was the essence of my experience. So the only conclusion that I've been able to come to is perhaps one of the reasons we're here is for experience. You know, how could every day, an ordinary experiential life, be of any value? Well, it's of value if we're unsure of what we are in the totality of self, if we don't really know what kind of creatures we are, the only way that we can discover the limits of those creatures, ot the limits of ourself, is to experience as much as we can.

JEFF: Well, that's very well said, well taken. Let's take a break here Joe, and we'll be right back, forgive the interruption. We shall continue here at Sightings on the Radio, in about three minutes. We'll be right back.


[Real Audio Counter: 01:14:14]

JEFF: And welcome back, we are talking with Joe McMoneagle, one of the six original CIA remote viewers, and the only remote viewer who stayed in the military's ultra-secret program through its entire existence, October 1978 through November 1995. Joe's book MIND TREK, Hampton Roads Publishing, a must-read for anybody who cares about the mind and what it is capable of, it's extraordinary, available now it's priced at $12.95. And Joe also has his own private corporation, he does consulting work and we will talk about that a little bit later.

JEFF: Let's go back to the actual procedures, and hardware so to speak, of this technology. You have in the book Joe, reprinted a number of photographs which were targets, which you were assigned to try to find information on, and then we have reprinted just below them the drawings you made of these targets. And it is really something to go through and read, and understand this, it's remarkable. I think you said that in 20% of your drawings you're able to do, literally a virtually perfect overlay lineup of the actual target, photograph or object that you're after. It's amazing. Are there other people, many other people who have come close to this percentage in your knowledge?

JOE: In terms of the remote viewing project, yes, there were quite a few individuals within the project that were as good and in some cases probably better than myself. So, it's one of those things, that there are world-class people in this business, and then there are those that probably aren't world-class. But it's something everyone can do, to a certain extent. The near-overlay type of drawing is extremely rare, except, only occurs maybe 20% of the time. But that's a statistic that's fairly accurate for remote viewers that do it professionally.

JEFF: I see. You have done live television programs, and done remote viewing, you just did one recently again -- how many have you done, and tell me about some of the results.

JOE: Actually, under controls, on camera live, I've done... of course the ABC special which was 'Put to the Test,' which was a very good example of remote viewing [JEFF: Yes.], I also did a remote viewing at the J.B. Rhine Center in Durham, I believe it was last June, that was filmed by Reader's Digest home video; the entire protocol at that time was controlled by a man by the name of Dr. Richard Wiseman from England, who is a noted skeptic in the field I might add. That was also very successful. I've done four remote viewings for The Paranormal World of Paul McKenna, which is a show that's broadcast in London. And I just recently did a live remote viewing for a Discovery Channel production that's being done for British television.

JEFF: Fun to do?

JOE: No, they're really kind of a pain in the neck. One of the things that is really interesting about this particular arena is, quite literally, there have been probably 12,000 remote viewings done under control, either under lab control or within the operations, and you could stack all these in a room, they would essentially fill probably 250 boxes, literally, and yet, with all of that proof, the typical scientist or the typical individual, just average individual, would say, "I'm sorry, I can't believe this, you have to _show_ me." And I find that remarkable. The only area that, you know, it has to be _personally demonstrated_ to everyone when they're first exposed to it. I think it's probably because it's asking them to change their concepts of reality.

JEFF: Well it's like the ultimate challenge to them.

JOE: Exactly.

JEFF: Very threatening, and people are gonna just shut the door on it.

JOE: You know, I did one remote viewing live, with CNN, and it was kinda funny, in that, when they asked me to do it I said no, I'm tired of this, I'm not gonna do it, why don't you have your reporter do it? And we set up a controlled remote viewing and the reporter did very well. But it was very difficult doing the last hour filming, because she wouldn't calm down. [unclear; laughter] blown away by the experience.

JEFF: That's very funny. That brings us to the next issue, of "teaching" remote viewing to people. It has become a cottage industry... Courtney Brown, Major Ed Dames, um, Lyn Buchanan, who you hold in very high regard, others, what about the idea of teaching remote viewing, it's becoming popular now, is it something that can be taught to the average person? We talked about this a bit earlier. The prices for these courses are rather exhorbitant at times. Give me a survey of this whole field if you would.

JOE: In terms of teaching, I think that you could certainly teach the protocol, and you can essentially teach the basics of a methodology. Now, one of the problems with the teaching is that many of the methods that are being taught are claiming "near 100% accuracy," they're claiming full contact with the target nearly 100% of the time. And those -- that just is not statistically supportable, and so I think people are being misled, about a lot of these methodologies, or the degree of accuracy they can achieve. There's certainly nothing wrong with helping someone develop a psychic method within a control. But I think in most cases, the prices, and the amount of time they say that they can be taught in, is ridiculous. Most cases they say they can teach someone to remote view with that kind of accuracy within a few weeks, and that's just not possible.

JEFF: I remember, early on with this Hale-Bopp comet controversy, Courtney Brown, allegedly his A Team, his remote viewers, in the Farsight Institute, all independently, reportedly, looked at this comet and found intelligent life out there with it and so on and so forth. What was your reaction to all of that?

JOE: My reaction was that I didn't believe it. Primarily the reason I didn't believe it is, he talks about his protocols in his book, and my review of his protocols or the way he defines them clearly shows that these are methodologies, and they're primarily training methodologies. So I don't think that the protocol is being followed. It's difficult to actually say that he's not following the protocol, because he quite simply does not open any of his operations or his training or anything to peer review, or to discussion. One of the sure-fire tests of a protocol, what actually makes a protocol real, is the fact that it is open to peer-review, it is open to discussion, and it is open to challenge.

JEFF: We had Courtney Brown essentially bringing forth information from his team, that the world was facing a real showdown with an extraterrestrial intelligence, which was accompanying the Hale-Bopp comet, Major Ed Dames has laid out in no uncertain terms his allegedly remote viewed prognostication, or assertion, or discovery, that another object with the comet was coming here with, apparently carrying plant pathogens, these are end of the world millenial madness pronouncements. Again I don't see how it does the, the field, the professional field, the scientific field of remote viewing any good. Would you care to comment on that.

JOE: I think that anything that sort of drives people to panic is unconscienable. I also have a firm belief that any kind of predictive viewing such as that, where you're talking about a future event, is participant in the creation of that event. In other words, if you talk a great deal about a coming war, then that has a tendency to catch on as a bush fire, and pretty soon you're fighting that war. It would be a far more valuable consequence to be predicting things in a positive format, producing an idea or concept that people can fasten themselves to that would become a positive or creative event.

JEFF: Yeah. Let's pause Joe, and we'll be right back with Sightings on the Radio.


[Real Audio Counter: 01:26:13]

JEFF: We're back. Joe, anybody thinking about getting into remote viewing, studying it and so forth, would do well to listen to what kind of advice from Joe McMoneagle?

JOE: Well, I think that anyone that wants to get into it, I think it's a very interesting thing to pursue, but it should not be pursued as an end unto itself. Like I said, it's like a martial art. Involve yourself with the intention of finding out as much about it as you can, have an open mind, but do not lose sight of your normal skepticism, it should be pursued in as clear a way as possible. And it's okay to go out and pursue some of these training methodologies I suppose, as long as you're careful not to be deluded by them; walk away so to speak with the things of value that you find there, and leave the things that are not of value.

JEFF: Why don't people people come to you for training, why isn't Joe McMoneagle offering remote viewing as a training course? Seems there's potentially a lot of money there.

JOE: Well, yeah, you know, I could hang a shingle out tomorrow and probably make a hundred thousand dollars a year, but that's not the point. What I've tried to do in [my book] MIND TREK is I've tried to provide as much information as possible, so that if someone wants to pursue this in their own talented way, they can. The other point I'd like to make is that I don't teach because I believe that since it is a number of years occupation to give an individual, then it would be extremely prohibitive from a cost standpoint, or from an investment or energy standpoint. Someone really has to want to do this. I also do not want responsibility for playing with someone's mind. I think everybody should grow and evolve under their own control and under their own speed. And many of the training scenarios assume that responsibility, which I think is very dangerous.

JEFF: Can remote viewing training hurt somebody?

JOE: [pause] There certainly have been some examples in the past of people who've been exposed to remote viewing that went off the deep end. In fact, in the science side, the research side, what we found to be true is the person who just unequivocably accepts everything about remote viewing without any skepticism, you know, what we call 'the true believer' --

JEFF: The quick believer.

JOE: Yeah, the person who just falls head over heels in love with remote viewing and everything about it, is usually far more dangerous in terms of their destructiveness to the field, or the science of it, than someone that holds a healthy skepticism.

JEFF: This has almost the earmark of a potential cult allegiance, that people might have to it.

JOE: Well, one of the ways of telling whether or not it is, is whether or not the trainer is willing to give over the last piece, or you know, in effect cut the training cord. Many of the people walk away from a lot of the training feeling that they really didn't get the full measure, they didn't get that last 10%, or they find that they're extremely dependent upon their instructor. If someone has the sense that they're still very dependent upon their instructor, and haven't learned enough to sort of walk on their own two feet, then they should be very suspect of the training, or the connection with that.

JEFF: Hmmmn. You worked with Dr. Ed May, at Stanford, and you still do work with Ed May. [JOE: Right.] I've had both you gentlemen on the program before, several times, I did ask the question then, I'm going to ask it again now. Remote viewing of course gathers data from outside and pulls it inward. Can remote viewing in any way "place" data in other people's minds? Can that be done? Can we influence the thoughts of others, could this technique somehow be used in reverse? Can we do that Joe?

JOE: Actually, I've seen dozens of experiments that were done by the Russians, the Hungarians, the Czechoslovakians; many of the experiments were done in labs here in the United States, where there was an attempt to directly influence the mind of another human being. Without using mechanical devices I would say no, I have not seen that displayed. Either the person is going to voluntarily do what they do, or no amount of outside influence is going to override their own desire, their own morality so to speak.

JEFF: Do you see that possibly changing in time? You mention "devices." Could this be married to some sort of technology that would be electronic in nature?

JOE: Well there's certainly a number of people in labs in the world that have been playing with everything from pulse microwave to wave front technology, where they can demonstrate that they can make people nervous, or they can create nausea in a group of people at distance, or interfere with perhaps the speed of their cognition. That's in its infancy, from a research standpoint. But that's the same as gassing someone in a room -- I mean, you're going to see an effect when you use a piece of equipment, an externalized method. In terms of causing someone to do something however, or make a decision, I've never seen that demonstrated anywhere.

JEFF: Can you -- you mentioned after your near death, after death experience, that you were able to know other people's thoughts before they actually spoke them. First of all, was that irritating to you, at all? Or embarrassing? Or did it place a huge burden on your senses?

JOE: Well it was, it was embarrassing, because some of the thoughts weren't, you know, wholesome, and some of the thoughts were certainly surprising to me, because they belied the personality of the person that I was dealing with. But over time what I just learned to do was accept the fact that all human beings are very unique, and that what's in a person's mind is their own business, and I have no right to it.

JEFF: You stay out of it now?

JOE: Yeah, I stay out of spontaneous reactions to people, I might shake somebody's hand when I meet them, or walk into a crowded room and brush up against somebody or something, but generally speaking, I just discard the information.

JEFF: Can you summon it on demand Joe?

JOE: Well, like I said, a really good, competent remote viewer can target objects, places, events, even concepts, conceptualizations, there are many examples of targeting concepts or plans for operations, that were very accurate, when they were in the planning stage --

JEFF: Well what you're saying is that you were able to remotely read people's minds.

JOE: Right, or conceptualize what was the concept or the idea behind what they were attempting to do.

JEFF: You are able to, as you have described to me before, really talk about, about one percent of what you've experienced in your military career as a remote viewer, and I understand that. Are people talking about remote viewing and disclosing things that they shouldn't be Joe?

JOE: That potential is certainly there. One of the things, one of the misconceptions about the exposure of STAR GATE was that the total program was exposed by the A.I.R. report, which was delivered to congress in the unclassified format. In fact, probably 98% of the program is still very classified, and is sealed away. In fact the evaluators who did the evaluation of the program for the A.I.R. (The American Institutes for Research), were not allowed access to the information.

JEFF: No kidding.

JOE: Yeah, it really brings some interesting light to their evaluation. Dr. Ray Hyman in fact states in an article that was written in the skeptic bulletin in Washington, that he was given access to the entire process and all its files. In fact he was given probably three boxes of information while there was still 110 boxes or more that were sealed away.

JEFF: Hmmn. What was really revealed was the fact that the program existed, not so much what it accomplished, and what it did and how it worked, correct?

JOE: That's correct. And many of the issues, in terms of targeting, a lot of the methodologies, that certainly has never been discussed.

JEFF: Alright, we're gonna pause and come back with Joe McMoneagle, whose book MIND TREK is must-reading, Hampton Roads Publishing, it's available at all major bookstores, in the bookstores, or you can order it. I'm Jeff Rense, this is Sightings on the Radio.


[Real Audio Counter: 01:39:15]

JEFF: Joe I want to pursue this idea again that I just brought up a few minutes ago, about getting into other people's heads. If you can get in there to read their thoughts, pick up concepts, how do we know that it's not possible to implant or influence thoughts and concepts? How can we say that can't happen?

JOE: Well actually we can't say that that can't happen. What I said before is that I just had never seen it demonstrated.

JEFF: I heard that, I understand, I heard that, that's why I'm bringing it up again.

JOE: One of the things that has become very apparent to me, and this is from twelve plus years on the research side, and certainly my nearly two decades of involvement in remote viewing, is that it's very clear to me that much of what happens to us in our lives has very much to do with the decisions we make on a day to day basis. We can either make those decisions in an aware state, or we can make them while we're essentially asleep, consciously. Most people unfortunately probably don't spend a great deal of time in the aware state. So, you could conceivably manipulate what someone does, because of the fact that they're asleep, they're not paying attention to what they're doing.

JEFF: Well and people are certain manipulated virtually every waking moment by the mass media, I mean that's a given, and it's right in your face [JOE: Sure.], and they use all sorts of technologies and techniques to do that, and my point is, if there are powerful individuals, powerful in the sense that they've been able to harness this ability, and under strict protocols, use it, why not? Why not?

JOE: Well, in my own experience, wherever I've seen, you know, cross-human effect, generally speak -- well, specifically speaking, in almost every case where a protocol was set up, both participants knew they were participating in exactly that kind of experiment. So there was a clear awareness that that's what the intention was and that's what was going on. So that implies a cooperativeness between the two individuals. In the case where the person was totally naive, there was no clearly demonstrated effect, that I've ever seen under controls. So, it may be that in order for the effect to occur, one has to be cognizant of, or aware of the fact that that's the kind of thing that's happening.

JEFF: Interesting -- we talk about auditory, visual, olfactory senses which can trigger responses in people, it would seem to me that the other possibility does exist --

JOE: Yeah, and it probably does, it's just that I've not seen it displayed. You know, it's one of those things, fill in the question mark.

JEFF: Yeah. Okay. The program was officially disbanded, there is allegedly no more funding for it, I remember seeing, I think it was Gates, talk about how it had a rather low percentage, an unacceptedly low percentage of success, it was interesting but it really didn't prove to be a valuable weapon. I must tell you, as a friend and an, an professional colleague so to speak in this media game that we are all in -- it doesn't make sense. That such a valuable program with such people as yourself in it, which can hit targets 55-60% of the time, and relatively few individuals who are paid military salary essentially, that that program would be disbanded, dropped in any way. Is it not possible Joe that this money simply went elsewhere?

JOE: That's always remotely possible. I seriously doubt it. My -- I have to give you my viewpoint, which is, having been in the program during the entire time of its existence, one thing was very apparent to me. Regardless of how it might have appeared, there was never any really openness to the program. In other words, most of the reason it was probably kept very low key or secretive many times, was just to keep people from knowing what the source of the data was. There's a great deal of negativity towards the paranormal, that certainly exists within the bureaucracy, and it was always from Day 1, the last place you ever wanted to be seen alive was standing next to an Army psychic. And there's no reason to think that that's changed.

JEFF: Or a professional UFO researcher.

JOE: [laughs] Right. Exactly. That doesn't mean that, you know, that it's not real, and it doesn't mean that it's not effective. It just means that most people who have to take a paycheck home are not going to expose their careers, particularly their political careers, to that sort of --

JEFF: Well I understand that, but we really are faced with the potential that there are hundreds of billions of dollars available over a very few -- over a short period of time of just a few years, to be spent on so-called black budget programs, secret programs, and I just gotta think that a few million dollars here and there could certainly keep this program more than alive at levels that maybe even Joe McMoneagle isn't aware of.

JOE: Oh yeah. That's always possible. From a remote viewing standpoint though, I would say that that's probably not going on, not happening.

JEFF: Interesting. Well, do you think that there may be some, more advanced technology?

JOE: In comparing the degree or level of remote viewing that was achieved at SRI, and the Cognitive Sciences Lab at SAIC, as well as within the operational Army unit through that period, I would say that we were probably state of the art. That doesn't mean that there isn't someone in the world somewhere that isn't doing as well or better --

JEFF: I've been told by people, this again is not substantiated, that there are electronics now that can actually read people's minds, and I don't know that we'll ever have, in the near future, any definitive proof on that, but I'd like to get your comment on that as we continue here with Sightings on the Radio, with my guest Joseph McMoneagle, author of the remarkable book MIND TREK, published by Hampton Roads, and we shall return.


[Real Audio Counter: 01:49:13]

JEFF: And welcome back everybody, I'm Jeff Rense and this is Sightings on the Radio, and we're talking to Joe McMoneagle tonight about remote viewing and many other things related to that in one way or another. Joe, have you ever come across information which would lead you to believe -- and I know you're under National Security constraints, and I can't expect for a moment you would certainly step across that line -- but do you know of any equipment that would allow people, either in a lab or from a remote distance, to tune in on someone's mind, and read it out to any reasonable degree whatsoever?

JOE: In my own experience, no. I know a number of people who have been researching an ability to, you know, to try to influence or affect the minds of people remotely, through the use of, say, pulse microwave, or --

JEFF: I'm talking more about reading thoughts, Joe --

JOE: In terms of reading, no. I don't even see how that could be possible. One of the ongoing arguments that has been going on for hundreds of years, literally, is the possibility of where "mind" resides. And we're not absolutely sure that the mind resides just in the brain to start with. There's certainly evidence now that memory doesn't reside totally in the brain, it resides throughout the nervous system of the body. It's just so complex a system, I just can't fathom that --

JEFF: That's a very interesting statement. So when people say you're sitting on your brains, they may be half right.

JOE: Exactly. In fact, mind, if it is not, if the brain does not represent mind, then the mind could almost exist anywhere, and I suspect that the mind probably resides outside of what we know as physical time-space, so how you would target that with a machine, that's beyond my ken.

JEFF: Very interesting. You used a nice word there, 'ken,' you don't hear that very often.

JOE: [laughs] My Scottish ancestry coming out.

JEFF: Yeah. I think one last question to go back and sort of do a little addition or footnote if you will, to the near death experience, after death experience. Did you get the feeling during that time, or the information or the sense, pardon the cliche, that we are going to come back, as in reincartion, and do it again on this plane?

JOE: You know that's, I've had a number of discussions quite recently as a matter of fact, about reincarnation, because my follow on book to MIND TREK deals with the future, and certainly reincarnation would be a part of that. My sense is that, in my own personal view, I don't buy reincarnation, and I'll tell you the reason why I don't. It implies that time is necessary outside of time-space, and I'm not sure that's true [JEFF: Yes, I understand.], in fact, now you know, a lot of people argue, well, you don't believe in reincarnation, their dander gets up and they get very defensive, I need to state that I _do_ believe in what I call 'multiple incarnations.' It's just that I don't think time affects it. I think someone can live multiple lives, and certainly their life as say a Roman soldier at the time of Christ, might be a life that they would lead at a different time, but not necessarily -- the incarnations do not necessarily fall one behind the other in a timeline. In fact, if multiple incarnations is possible as a reality, then time is really only material to when we're in that particular body, so we could be living multiple lives all simultaneously.

JEFF: Yes indeed. What an amazing vision that is to contemplate. We're gonna break for news, when we continue, we're gonna talk to Joe McMoneagle about UFOs, aliens, remote viewing the past, or forward viewing the future, and wait'll you hear what he has to say about that. We'll have much more here in the next hour. Sightings on the Radio. I'm Jeff Rense, we'll be back.


[Real Audio Counter: 2:00:15]

JEFF: And welcome back, I'm Jeff Rense, you're listening to Sightings on the Radio, coast to coast, on the Premier Radio Network, happy you're with me again tonight, a wonderful program this evening, a very favorite guest of mine, Joseph McMoneagle, America's most decorated and world renowned remote viewer, served in the military's program from its beginning to its alleged termination in 1995. In 1970 while serving overseas in the Army, if you just joined us, Joe McMoneagle had a near death experience that opened him to spontaneous psychic flashes. Later when tested at SRI International, he was confirmed as a world class remote viewer, in other words he was able to correctly perceive and to describe previously unknown people, places, objects or events. And there's much more to it than that, as you know if you've been listening tonight.

JEFF: Joe, have you ever had a UFO, a classic-type UFO experience of your own?

JOE: In fact, that happened in 1966, I was assigned to an Air-Sea Rescue Unit in the Bahama Islands in [aluthra...sp?]. And we worked in pairs there, and I and my partner at the time had a classic event. It occurred about one in the morning I suppose, between 12:30, midnight and one in the morning. We were walking to our quarters, and the island we lived on was an [out?] island, they had no streetlights or anything, so it was very very dark, and the whole area lit up like daylight, and we looked up to see what the source of the light was, and it was a very large disk that was hovering directly over us.

JEFF: How close?

JOE: It was probably, Oh I don't know, 1400, 1200 feet above us. It was perhaps the size of a football field, and it was ellipsoid. It was moving in a sort of start-stop fashion, you know, sort of a stutter kind of effect.

JEFF: This was 1966?

JOE: 1966, correct.

JEFF: Four years before your near death experience?

JOE: Right. And after a few seconds, our perception was that it shot over the horizon, and everything went back to very dark. And we looked at each other, and went back to the club that we had left, and proceeded to get really... really wasted. [laughs]

JEFF: I would think that would do it. Was there any missing time involved?

JOE: Not to our knowledge. The following morning however, we were both very badly sunburned on one side, and had the scratchiness in the eyes --

JEFF: You mean moonburned don't you?

JOE: Yeah, moonburned, exactly. They actually accused us of having gotten drunk and slept face up on the beach all day. But in fact, my partner was burned badly enough they had to evacuate him to [unclear] Air Force Base in Florida for treatment at the hospital there.

JEFF: Could you see structure in this craft?

JOE: There were discernable lines, we couldn't see any windows or anything, but there were definitely lines on it. It was -- the experience convinced me of the existence of UFOs. I think the problem comes in, I'm always asked, were they the Greys or the Silvers or whatever, we had no perception at the time of any kind of, you know, aliens or anything. It'd be very difficult to say exactly what the experience was. I do acknowledge that UFOs are very real though. And I think they probably should be investigated as a real phenomenon.

JEFF: Are you a little perplexed, and/or embarrassed, and/or ashamed, at this government's pretty obvious 50 year cover up of this phenomenon?

JOE: Well I -- it seems to me, what actually angers me a little bit, is that there seems to be a propensity within this continent, within North America, to look the other way when an anomalous occurrence happens.

JEFF: Are you being charitable, I mean they do much more than look the other way, but that's another story...

JOE: Well, you know, in my own mind, these are things that should be scientifically explored, and even if there's a secret program where information's being collected or consolidated in one place, it really is detrimental to science as a whole to keep that information from other scientists. A room full of scientists would certainly be a lot more valuable than a hand-picked few, in terms of perhaps coming to some conclusions about UFOs. There's certainly a lot of evidence from the Blue Book results, and a lot of what Hyneck published, and some of the things that Jacque Vallee has said, that I find to be extremely valuable, and would, any additional information would certainly extend our knowledge in that regard.

JEFF: One would surmise at some point in time you have been intrigued enough by this to possibly remote view the issue? Have you?

JOE: I never select my own targets, so as intrigued as I might be, in order not to be front loaded, I never select a UFO as a target. But over the last 19 years I have been targeted a number of times against UFO targets, and the results have been kind of interesting.

JEFF: Well would you be able to share any of those kind of interesting results with us?

JOE: In one case, I can't speak directly to the target I was actually remote viewing, but it was a ground-based target, and I was giving a fairly accurate description of that particular ground-based target, it was a military target, and in the processes of doing so, had a perception of something crossing my field of vision, and produced a drawing of it, and as things would have it, there were other collection methodologies being employed against the particular ground target at the time, and they did in fact capture an image of the object across my field of vision, and it was exactly as I had drawn it. And it looked very much like the UFO that I had seen in the Bahama islands.

JEFF: When you say they captured image of it, who did that again?

JOE: The intelligence, other intelligence organizations, using other methodologies.

JEFF: Such as photography, video?

JOE: Yeah, something like that.

JEFF: Okay, I understand. Any other instances that you can share with us where you may have been given as a target an off-planet intelligence, or an off-planet artifact?

JOE: Yeah, within MIND TREK I give examples of that --

JEFF: Yes, I'm looking at it right now, I just wanted to lead into it --

JOE: Yeah, there was a person from NASA who actually came to The Monroe Institute when I was there, that's a lab here in Virginia, and he brought with him a list of seven sets of coordinates. I was locked away early so that I would not possibly recognize who the individual was. And he turned the list of coordinates over to the facilitator, and they read them to me over an audio line while I was in the remote viewing booth. And I produced descriptions on six of the seven coordinates that were absolutely accurate. They were descriptions of ground features, such as pyramidial forms, structures on the surface of the planet, and at the time, since they were coordinates, I assumed that they were earth coordinates, and I thought that we had found new archeological digs of some kind, and as it turned out, they were coordinates of Mars. The NASA rep was very surprised, because he was the only one that knew what the exact locations consisted of, and he was not participant to the remote viewing, although he was allowed to listen to it remotely. He was absolutely stunned at the correlation. And in the process, the wind-down process of that remote viewing, I had a perception of humanoid lifeforms that had participated in the construction of these structures. When I put them in MIND TREK, I thought a great deal about putting them in the book, and decided that these were things that probably should be shared. One of the cautions that I added with it was the fact that, when you do remote viewing of a place that's remote, such as on Mars, it really doesn't prove anything. It remains unfortunately science fiction until someone is able to put some kind of a lander there that can verify the reality of the remote viewing.

JEFF: Right, I understand. The pictures in the book are pictures I haven't seen before, a couple of them. Figure 28, the crater with pyramid --

JOE: Right.

JEFF: I don't recall seeing that. That is another one of those pictures that you keep looking at and thinking about, how could this possibly be a natural formation? The mind tells you, my mind tells me it can't.

JOE: Right, if there really is a pyramid sitting t-- as large as this particular one is, which is probably a mile and a half to two miles tall --

JEFF: Oh it's huge --

JOE: Sitting next to the impact crater, it had to be put there after the impact crater, otherwise the impact crater would have wiped it out. Things like that. Very unique features. Not consistent with physical expectation, anyway.

JEFF: There is another one of your remotely viewed drawings, we have figure 30, the blow up of figure 86A07, it shows a rectangular feature with a triangular side, again, it is absurd for me to try to explain this as a natural phenomenon. We'll be back with Joe in just a couple of minutes with much more here, at Sightings on the Radio.


[Real Audio Counter: 02:14:14]

JEFF: Joe when you were given the coordinates, you were just given latitude and longitude, so you weren't told where it was, you were just simply given coordinates, you said through an audio source I guess, just a speaker --

JOE: Right, the facilitator was actually in another room, I was in a black tube, that's a shielded tube, the NASA person was in a different room entirely, and monitoring it from that room. The coordinates, the first set of coordinates I was given was a large pyramid, and my assumption was that the coordinates were earth-bound. And I was a little surprised when I started describing the interior of the pyramid, because it didn't match any that I was aware of. And I thought then that perhaps this was a new pyramid that had been discovered somewhere on earth. What I didn't know at the time was that all the planets in our solar system have a coordinate system very much like the earth.

JEFF: When you say coordinate system, what do you mean?

JOE: The longitude and latitude designations.

JEFF: Oh, ok. I see. So they've all been mapped.

JOE: Right, exactly.

JEFF: That's not common knowledge.

JOE: Probably not with the general public, but it certainly is with the astrophysicists and the astrologers, and...

JEFF: Yeah, we know about Mars and Venus, but to have all the planets reasonably mapped is very interesting -- were you expecting to get away without telling me what you visualized on the inside of this pyramid? [laughs]

JOE: No, in fact what I saw inside this particular pyramid were very large corridors and rooms, and I was surprised at the height and the sizes of these rooms and corridors, and in fact commented that I felt that there was something wrong with my scale of perception at the time. There was one other part in the remote viewing, where I said, I interrupted what I was saying about the feature and said something like, gee, you know the sun looks really funny. And they said what do you mean? And I said, well it looks smaller, and seems to be surrounded with some kind of mist. And their response to that was, well we're not interested in the sun, we're interested in what you're perceiving at the location.

JEFF: Right. So what you're suggesting here is that this mile and a half tall pyramid maybe had rooms in it that were for some pretty tall folks?

JOE: Yes, exactly, in the very end of the remote viewing, I had a perception that there was almost what I would call a psychic record, an emotional record of some kind, that had been left by the people who had constructed these facilities. And my sense at the time was that they were probably used for some form of hibernation, it had something to do with the weather, the conditions, the climate on this, at that particular location. Another perception I had when I was asked about "when" is that it was a very very long time ago, perhaps a million years.

JEFF: Did you have a picture in your mind's eye of what these beings may have looked like at any point?

JOE: Right, they were essentially very much like us, humanoid, but very tall, perhaps 12 feet tall, 13 feet tall. I actually drew a picture of one of them standing next to what would be a standard, or average sized man. Very very tall, lanky, long legged, long armed individuals.

JEFF: Not a real common description that we hear in the field of UFO research though, very interesting. Did you have a feeling that these people are all gone now, dead?

JOE: Yeah, my perception is that they are, in the sense that they no longer exist. But I've always had this sort of niggling thing in the back of my mind, where, perhaps these could have been our ancestors in some way.

JEFF: The rectang -- if anyone listening is "remotely" interested, pardon the pun, you've gotta get this book, it's MIND TREK, Hampton Roads is the publisher, Joseph McMoneagle is the author, and by the way I want to interject one thing here -- you've got your own private corporation now called Intuitive Intelligence Applications Inc., located in Virginia, we need to give the address Joe for those who would like to contact you, there are many out there who I'm sure would like to talk to you, and if you can an email address too.

JOE: The [mailing] address for the company is PO Box 100 Nellysford Virginia 22958 USA. The email is

JEFF: Ok, we'll give that again before the end of the program, to make sure that people can contact you. The idea of life on Mars is of course most intriguing, and I think, trying to think what it must have been like when you were shown the pictures eventually of what you had come up with during your session.

JOE: Well actually, I had to hunt those down myself.

JEFF: Oh, they never even showed you the pictures?

JOE: No, they didn't, what I did when I decided that I wanted to put my results in the book, I contacted the JPL, the lab out on the West Coast [JEFF: Pasadena], and requested negatives for the locations for the coordinates. And I was really surprised to see the actual structures. Up until -- I actually did this remote viewing in 1983, and did not actually obtain the negatives for those specific locations until 1993, which is when I had the book published.

JEFF: Are these pictures Joe within the confines of the so-called [DNM?] pyramid in the face area, or are they --

JOE: They're all in that location.

JEFF: So the implication is, as far back as 1983 NASA was pretty intrigued with the location where the alleged pyramid sits, and wanted Joe McMoneagle, top military remote viewer, to go take a look.

JOE: Certainly one of the people in NASA was interested, anyway.

JEFF: Wow. I'm looking at these pictures right now, structures with triangular wall -- [chuckles] something's going on up there. Quite clearly, something did go on up there a long time ago, as you say, Ki just -- thumbing through these, I just want to keep looking at them, they're fascinating. The book again is MIND TREK, most bookstores will have it or can get it for you. What else of an "ET" nature Joe can you offer us tonight?

JOE: I did a remote viewing, it was selected at random from a very large group of targets, someone had decided to include a UFO type of target within the collection, and of course no one knew that at the time, and eventually it was chosen randomly from the large targeting pool. What I essentially began describing was dancing lights on a horizon, and that's all I initially could get from my perceptions, and my monitor, my facilitator kept saying, well there's gotta be more. And when I pressed it, I wound up having a spontaneous out-of-body [experience], and found myself in the interior of a white tube. My experiences there were very interesting. The first thing that happened was, there was an apparition of my father appeared, and my father'd been dead about three years, and he ordered me to go home, and I knew immediately that it wasn't my father because he'd never spoken to me that way. That apparition disappeared when it seemed to have no effect on me I guess, and that was replaced with an apparition of a being of light, that then divided into two, and my perception was that it was arguing with itself, which made me a little nervous. That had no effect, and that eventually went away. I then decided I wanted to go back to my body, and that had no effect, which surprised me, because usually you wind up returning immediately.

JEFF: You were not able to cancel the OBE.

JOE: Right. And that made me a little nervous, but it also made me angry I might add. And at that point I felt as though something had [unclear] inside of me, had struck a nerve, and I was suddenly back in my body.

JEFF: We'll be right back Joe after this short intermission here, at Sightings on the Radio, a remarkable program tonight, hope you're enjoying it, we'll be right back.


[Real Audio Counter: 02:26:16]

JEFF: And we're back. And Joe we had to almost cut into your last sentence or two, so if you could wrap that up, you were out of body, you were I guess spontaneously put into an OBE and unable to get back; you saw what appeared to be your father, who didn't act in character. A Being of a light, and what happened after that, could you finish that?

JOE: I had a sense that something had reached down inside of me, into my being, and it essentially plucked a nerve, which made me instantly ill. I felt as though I wanted to projectile vomit, and I was, I found myself in my body. I sat bolt upright, I was at that time reclining on the couch, and collided heads with my facilitator, and we were running around the room holding our heads, and it turned out that he had been trying to get a reaction from me for some minutes, and had been unable to. We discussed what happened and decided that we would terminate the remote viewing. We turned the material over to the person who dealt with the material, and when they learned what had happened and saw what the target was, it was shared with us, and it turned out that the target had been a UFO sighting in Tacoma Washington in the 1950's, that had been witnessed by a few hundred people. And what they had reported in the paper was 'dancing lights on the horizon' which was kind of interesting.

JEFF: What you're describing is basically time travel, if you want to use time as any kind of a reference at all here.

JOE: Well, you know, remote viewing is not constrained by time, you can remote view the past, present or future. [JEFF: I understand.] But the point I want to make here is, there's a lot of conjecture that can be made from the results of these remote viewings, but in reality, there's nothing provable by them, unless someone wants to take the information and use it as a cueing device for applying some other appropriate field of science or something. It's unconscienable to me that they could get information about these areas on Mars for example and not have some curiosity as to what might be sitting there. That would be an obvious place to put a soft lander.

JEFF: Yeah, and unconscienable is a very good word, and I think the opposite is quite true, there is a great deal of interest, and most people who look into this know what's going on, I think there is something up there that does need further examination, and may in fact BE being examined, through the good offices of people like you, others perhaps in the same area; one wonders, if they came to you with these targets, if they didn't go to all the rest of them to try and get corroboration.

JOE: That's always very possible.

JEFF: As far as remote viewing the past, present and future, as being one and the same, let us now if we can take a look ahead, we are being deluged with millenial madness, end of the world prophecy, doom and gloom all the time, has Joe McMoneagle looked, if we can use the term again advisedly, into the future?

JOE: In fact, the follow-on book to Mind Trek which is, I sent it to my agent in New York and I've since received it back and I'm doing some corrections on it, deals almost entirely with the future. In fact it deals with "time" across the board, I talk about how past, present and future is inexorably tied together, like a giant web, and you know, pull one string and you change all of reality. And within the contents of the book I addresstwo periods specifically, one period is from 1997 through the year 2050, and I address that very specifically because I intend that to establish the veracity of my predictive ability, and then I spend a great deal, or perhaps half the portion of the book, talking about the year 3000 and what we can expect to happen in that time period.

JEFF: We're going to be around, aren't we.

JOE: [laughs] Yeah, certainly in some form we will be. One of the things that I talk about is the fact that we, in predicting the future, it's what I call 'the Verne effect,' we have the capacity for creating, conceptualizing facts about the future, simply in the act of predicting them, so it would obviously be of benefit to us to predict positive things, because we're establishing sort of the seeds for those realities. I've gone to a great extent to keep it as positive and as constructive as I can. It's not so much the case with the year 1997-2050, because many of the events that will occur have already been set, you know the stage has sort of been set, and those events will probably occur in spite of how constructive we might want to be.

JEFF: How would you, how would you lay those events out for us, just in a thumbnail sketch.

JOE: Probably the one that's most troubling to me, between now and say the next ten years, is I envision -- well actually between now and the next five years -- I envision another major war in the middle east.

JEFF: Some people say we've got, you know, two or three years, and that dovetails exactly with what you're saying.

JOE: That's probably correct, and there's a whole lot of reasons for that, and I'm trying to establish the causes, in the hopes that maybe some people somewhere can take positive steps to alter the course of history.

JEFF: You're actually working on that right now?

JOE: That -- yes, I hopefully will get this back to my agent within the next week to ten days, and maybe it'll go out to publishers then.

JEFF: Well, we certainly expect that you will be back on this program when that book comes out Joe, you're invited right now.

JOE: I'd be glad to.

JEFF: War in the middle east. How big of a scale are we talking about here, in your opinion?

JOE: In my opinion, I think it's going to be a major conflict. One of the problems here is that there is an area in the middle east that everyone now is interested in, it's the extreme Eastern Turkey, Northern Iran, Southern [unclear] area, it's predominantly the area that the Kurds reside in.

JEFF: Northern Iraq?

JOE: Yes -- um, well, Northern Iraq is certainly going to be involved. It's an area that is probably the richest area for oil in the world. And the problem is that in the ensuing conflict, which will begin on a small scale, it'll be a, quote, an anti-terrorism move, probably by a number of countries, our expectation will be that our current allies will be there to support us, I don't think that's going to be the case, I think we'll be very surprised at the position that perhaps Turkey and Saudi Arabia will take. It will certainly threaten the oil supply to Western Europe, and that's great cause for concern. Iran will be involved. Iraq is a great threat in this regard, because Iraq, we've essentially taught Saddam Hussein what _not_ to do; in the next conflict he will take steps to not make the same mistakes, and I think that there will be others involved in this particular conflict that were not involved previously.

JEFF: Conventional arms leading to nuclear arms?

JOE: Um, no I don't think nuclear arms will be used, but it'll certainly be a very messy war, but there will be [JEFF: C.A.D.?] certainly [C.D.R.?], CD-type chemical, biological weapons will be used.

JEFF: Lot of spill over into surrounding areas?

JOE: Yeah, I can't help but think that this will grow; our various problem is going to be bringing material and men and supplies and whatnot into that area --

JEFF: It's going to be a big ground conflict, with lots of nasty and messy weaponry, if I understand, that's what --

JOE: Yeah, that I think you can be assured of.

JEFF: Will it make its way to the shores of the U.S.?

JOE: In an indirect way. I believe that that's probably already being planned.

JEFF: In other words, a chemical-biological retaliation perhaps, in the heart of some --

JOE: Well I wouldn't go so far as to say that, but I certainly suspect there will be some very concerted attempts to create incidents of terror, or terrorist-type activities.

JEFF: Again we're gonna break, but non-nuclear warfare, to the best of your knowledge?

JOE: That's correct.

JEFF: Alright, we'll be right back, with Mr. Joe McMoneagle.


[Real Audio Counter: 02:39:15]

JEFF: Ok, we are back with Joe McMoneagle, we've got, not a whole lot of time Joe, these shows go so fast with you, I want to just kind of rattle off a few questions. In summary, you say, coming conflict that you see in the next 3-5 years that you see, will be geographically confined to the middle east, for the most part?

JOE: For the most part yes, that's how I see it.

JEFF: Gulf War II, but bigger?

JOE: Yeah, I think it'll encompass a lot more area. One of the things I wanted to say, I like to counterbalance what negative things I have to say with things that are positive, and I, so I want to make another prediction available here, in the next 25 years, we're probably going to develop a methodology for doing surgery without ever breaking the skin. And I think that will be an incredible advancement in terms of medicine. So that's something that we can look forward to, as well.

JEFF: Well a lot of wounded veterans from this next war may appreciate that.

JOE: Yeah, um, it's, kind of black humor there.

JEFF: Yes, well we'll accept it, because there is some positive --

JOE: And knowing predictively some of these things, it may be possible that steps can be taken in a political sense or in a rational sense that will either delay or will --

JEFF: Allegedly we still have free will at our disposal

JOE: Exactly.

JEFF: But when you have international petrochemical giants vying for petro dollars, and we are simply the numbers in the computer, one wonders how much is available to us, ultimately, I don't know. Do you see a number of dead in this conflict or injured, did you come up with any round numbers, it would just be speculation of course --

JOE: No, I would rather not even --

JEFF: I understand, that's a dark thing to get into. Is this Armageddon, Joe?

JOE: No, I don't believe so.

JEFF: The biblical people might say it is, but...

JOE: Well there's certainly, you know, many people that would ascribe a religious significance to it of some kind, or, you know --

JEFF: We're seemingly very well keyed for something like you are speculating upon here. Can remote viewers locate precious metals and petroleum and so forth?

JOE: As a matter of fact, through my company, I established my company in 1984, I've done a lot of metallurgical work, locating minerals, locating specific kinds of stones for quarries --

JEFF: Isn't that dowsing though Joe?

JOE: I do in fact do a lot of dowsing in combination with remote viewing. I spent some time at SRI learning dowsing with a woman by the name of Francis Faering, and was able to develop that talent quite well.

JEFF: Can remote viewing be used to recruit other remote viewers?

JOE: That's an interesting point. We attempted to do that, and I went around and talked to a number of people as possible candidates, and filed a report in which I made my views very public about the possibility of those individuals becoming viewers, and it was totally ignored. [laughs] [JEFF: Ignored by whom?] Ignored by the administration that had hired me to go do that. The problem was then that most of the predictions I had made came to fruition.

JEFF: [laughs] Problem for them.

JOE: Yeah right, exactly.

JEFF: Joe's company again, if you're interested -- I didn't know it had been around that long Joe --

JOE: Yeah, I actually put it together when I retired in 1984 from the military, and went to work for SRI.

JEFF: How interesting. The address again is PO Box 100 Nellysford Virginia 22958. Or you can email Joe at What about remote viewing vis-a-vis some of the health problems that we are facing as a species here, i.e. the AIDS epidemic, hepatitus C, have you looked into that aspect of it at all, of pestilence on all of us?

JOE: Well, the human race has been subjected to pestilence throughout its history. There is no doubt in my mind that within the next 20-25 years we'll find, if not cures, antidotes for most of the diseases that we're suffering from now. But they'll simply be replaced with other diseases; it's a constant war that we're fighting on the medical front. And so I think the expenditure of dollars in terms of research within the medical arean is important, if we're going to stay ahead in that war.

JEFF: Do we see any major changes ahead in our acknowledged failing political systems here in this country?

JOE: Oh, I think we can certainly look to some changes that are going to occur across the board. No one's going to be exempt from those changes over the next few hundred years.

JEFF: Speaking of exemptions, have you seen anything that might lead to some relief from the IRS?

JOE: [laughs] Outside of taking it out and shooting it, I don't know --

JEFF: I can hear the 'amens' now, in my non-remote-viewing head, already...

JOE: Yeah, the tax system leaves a lot to be desired, and it's gotten to the point where it's damaging almost everybody that's connected to it.

JEFF: Yeah it's, by law it's a voluntary compliance we're all saddled with, and I understand that only about 70% of the people are voluntarily complying anymore, that's supposedly a secret but it is failing I think. We'll be right back with Joe McMoneagle, this is Jeff Rense, and you're listening to Sightings on the Radio, on the Premiere Radio Network.


[Real Audio Counter: 02:49:15]

JEFF: And we're back, our remaining minutes with Joe McMoneagle, his book MIND TREK, it's just must-reading, you've gotta read this one, Hampton Roads is the publisher, and Joseph McMoneagle is the author. His company is located at PO Box 100 Nellysford Virginia 22958, or you can email Joe at And please do contact him. I want to ask one other quick question here, and then get kind of a summary statement for you Joe. Before I forget, let me invite you to come back at your earliest opportunity when your next book is published or about to be done, we're going to pursue this by all means, so you are invited, please do consider that invitation open and long standing.

JOE: I appreciate that Jeff.

JEFF: Does the ingestion of any chemicals, pills, drugs, enchance the ability to remote view, to your knowledge?

JOE: No, in fact there's evidence that the Russians expended quite a deal, a great deal of energy in testing that sort of thing. And literally ruined more minds than they were able to use. In fact, ingestion of any chemicals in trying to develop the mental ability to remote viewing is deleterious to the effect. You should be in fact cautious with caffeine, anything that affects the nervous system. So I would recommend, for anybody that's going to be involved in remote viewing, that they learn to discipline themselves away from any those, assist -- chemical assistant type of things.

JEFF: You mentioned earlier that you though "mind" may be not only outside the brain, but maybe out this dimension, that may possibly be multidimensional, different levels of consciousness maybe, it's all quite complicated and all of that -- how do see the use of mind-altering drugs in general on people?

JOE: I think what the chemicals actually do is they interfere with the function of the brain, and if the brain is simply an interface device to mind, all we're doing is we're loading static onto the line. I've, in my own experience, have found that there's a lot more clarity in not using chemicals, "clean and pure of the body and mind" so to speak.

JEFF: How 'bout, about a 60 second summary statement here Joe.

JOE: I think remote viewing is a very interesting field, it's a very new one; I sort of look at it as the flight by the Wright Brothers. Of course when the Wright Brothers got off the ground there was no such thing as aeronautical engineering. I suspect in 100 years we'll know a lot more about the mechanisms of remote viewing, and it will become a science unto itself.

JEFF: How 'bout in the 5-10 years?

JOE: In the next 5-10 years, I think enough predictions can be made that it'll prove the veracity of remote viewing, at least as a method of say, targeting other methodologies, in forms of creativity, perhaps aiding or assisting in developing where we're going with our products and things like that.

JEFF: Real quickie. Any natural earth disasters or cataclysms headed toward the U.S., in terms of major earthquakes or things, that you see?

JOE: Probably within the next 50 years we'll see a couple of earthquakes near eight on the richter scale, but that's normal, we'll have the normal cataclysms.

JEFF: OK, alright, thank you again Joseph McMoneagle, for a totally wonderful and fascinating three hour program, I really appreciate it.

JOE: You're very welcome Jeff, thank you for asking.

JEFF: We'll talk soon.

[end transcript]

SIGHTINGS ON THE RADIO on the Premiere Radio Network
Sightings on the Radio Web Site:
Live/archived shows:

Sunday, June 1st, 1997
8:00pm - 11:00pm Pacific Time

...Talks about remote viewing, near-death experiences, the future, and about his book
MIND TREK: Exploring Consciousness, Time and Space Through REMOTE VIEWING
Hampton Roads Publishing ISBN 1-878901-72-9 or order directly at (800) 766-8009

Transcribed from Real Audio, see:
Transcribed by PJ Gaenir,

Transcriber notes: This is a "general" transcript. It does not include every syllable.