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This list was closed July 4, 1998

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Begin Archive #012 January 1998

Date sent: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 10:11:44 GMT
From: Brian Oldham
Subject: Re: [Psi] "Real" Reality

>What persuades you so completely that what you are now experiencing, all
>your senses, vision, hearing, touch, etc. --all that & more -- is NOT "only
>in your mind"? There is _no other place_ for those events to occur. This
>does not mean that everything is just imagination! Only that we make the
>constructs that we collectively call "the real world" inside our heads, out
>of raw data from the environment.

Sure. I know what you are saying, but we don't live every waking moment of
our daily lives wondering if what our senses show us has objective existence,
or reminding ourselves that what we perceive exists only because we observe
it. That is only a philosophical construct anyway - and one which attempts to
twist my view of reality. Send me to jail if you must yeronner, but I still
believe there is a place for pragmatism even in this branch of science. If we are to
make sense of these phenomena then someone has to keep their feet on
the ground and ask how they relate to our everyday world of experience -
the real world, as I prefer to call it.

>I say it is mutual agreement that persuades us all of this. The notion of an
>external "reality" is what our race has, in broad terms, _agreed_ to.
>Everyone is "taught" this, by example far more than precept, from Day One.
>I'm certainly as much a party to the agreement as everyone else -- I use
>doors, carefully opening them first; I don't drive north on the southbound
>expressway; I use words to communicate.

Well there you go. So why should we make things difficult for ourselves by
refusing to acknowledge that which is returned by our senses? We are after
all broadly in agreement that what we each individually perceive is shared.

>How can it be anything but relevant? You ask, is it "real"? If you recognize
>no criterion for distinguishing what is "real" from what is "in the mind,"
>how can any answer have meaning to you? If there is no way to tell the
>difference, then there is no difference.

But suppose I were to rephrase the question using a hundred words in
place of "real" in an attempt to be definitive, what guarantee would I have
that my definition would not also require definition. Where would it end?
I should still not be understood.

If I appear to have been angered by this thread it is because diversionary
arguments of this kind hamper progress. They occur nowhere so much as
in the field of parapsychology. Bridges would not get built if architects
argued over the meaning of a hole for the rivet. I am simply not convinced that you
guys did not understand what I was trying to say.


Date sent: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 06:53:21 -0800
From: Angela Thompson Smith
Subject: Re: [Psi] OOBE question.

Marilyn Huff wrote:
> Since I was 12 or so I have been feeling the vibrations,
> rolling over, lifting up, and going places.

Hi Marilyn, you would be surprised to know that 1 in 20 people experience
at least one OBE during their lifetime, usually in response to some
traumatic event. About 1% of the population, like us, experience multiple
OBEs. I too have had OBEs since I was a little girl, the first clearly
remembered ones were when I was about 8 years old. Not all of mine have
been pleasant but I will get to that later.

I was given the chance to make peace with him.

Something similar happened to me, I had a dream about my father, about 12
years ago. My parents were in England and I was over here. I knew my
father was going to die. He was very uncomfortable about saying "I love
you" and also found it hard to accept love from others. So, I wrote him a
letter thanking him for all the things he had done for us as kids,
including selling his tools one year to buy us Christmas presents. My
mother said that when she read it to him he cried. Then I went home and
he died within a few days. The day he was in the Hospice dying I was
meditating my a local river and did an OBE to visit with Dad (We had
physically visited that morning but he was zonked out from painkillers).
He told me that he wanted to go but was staying for me and Mum. I said,
"Dad, don't worry, we'll be OK, just let go." He died that night. A few
weeks later I had a dream and saw Dad standing with his arms at his side.
I went over and gave him a big hug, something he could not accept in
life. He gave me a great hug back.

> I am really bothered by the latest spate of books encouraging people to
> try to have OOBEs, Especially after what happened to me several months
> ago.

There have always been books on this topic and always will be. Having
OBEs is a normal human ability and should not be censored or pushed under
the carpet. People have an individual responsibility to use their
experiences wisely, though. There should have been some portion of the
book that advised what to do if you start getting negative experiences.
Let me ask you, how do you react when you have negative experiences in
the waking state - you deal with them in various ways. Nobody guaranteed
that life (or OBEs) was all going to be pleasant. Hope this doesn't sound
like a lecture, just helping you be aware that OBEs are not all love and

However, when negative OBEs occur there are several things you can do.
There is of course, the advise that you shield yourself in white light. I
have never found this to be effective but if you believe it works, maybe
it will. What I have found to be most effective was to imaging myself
holding a mirror. I was bothered by a negative intrusion during sleep
last year - it happened several nights in a row and I knew where it was
coming from. I remembered the mirror and turned it to reflect the
negative images back to the sender. The negative intrusions stopped.

> So, has anyone had anything like this happen?

Yes, as written above. Usually, like real life, negative OBEs only occur
occasionally and pass. If they recur I use the mirror procedure. I used
to get OBEs of a black cloud hovering over me until I realised they were
linked with an upcoming death in the family.

> How did you deal with it?

By using the same combination of logic and intuition that I deal with
negative events in my waking life. If that doesn't work, I use the
mirror. Actually, any technique will work that sends the negative
intrusion back to the source.

> What does it mean?

That is so individual that you need to work this out yourself. We get to
experience the positive and the negative. We just have to sort them out
and let them go. Did you read the part, in his book, where Monroe thought
he had a grizzled old man on his back, breathing heavily in his ear? He
got pretty scared until he realized it was himself, he had only partially
lifted out of his body.

Marilyn, if you want to email privately, I would be happy to answer any
other questions. Also my book coming out in September entitled Remote
Perception: OBEs, Remote Perception and other Normal Abilies (Hampton
Roads) contains lots of helpful material.

Kind regards
Angela Thompson Smith
The Inner Vision Institute

Date sent: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 10:52:18 -0500
From: Thomas E Carey
Subject: Re: [Psi] "Real" Reality

At 10:11 1/30/1998 GMT, Bryan wrote:
>Well there you go. So why should we make things difficult for ourselves by
>refusing to acknowledge that which is returned by our senses? We are after
>all broadly in agreement that what we each individually perceive is shared.

I think you've misread something here. I certainly don't refuse to
acknowledge sensory data, and nothing I've posted here recommends that. In
my last post I wrote:
>>I'm certainly as much a party to the agreement as everyone else -- I use
>>doors, carefully opening them first; I don't drive north on the southbound
>>expressway; I use words to communicate.

The point is that this sensory data is raw. From the neurologist's point of
view, the data is only electrical signals in the nervous system. (There are
other ways of looking at it, obviously.) In any case, it is from this that
_we_ form the constructs that we call 'chair,' 'wind,' 'nose,' 'water,' etc.
There's nothing "unreal" about this -- it's the only sort of "reality" that
we can know. But our common agreements restrict the range of sensory data we
are willing to accept.

This is a discussion about perceptions beyond that range, call them
extrasensory, or paranormal, or anything you like. Here also each person
makes his or her individual gestalts. Lacking any gestalt the data is
chaotic, meaningless. Most of us have experienced this, it can happen in
quite ordinary situations. I once was listening to a piece of music on the
radio, one that I liked very much, and for whatever reason it suddenly
turned into the most incredible cacophony. One could say I lost my train of
thought -- or that I 'forgot' to maintain my gestalt for the music. It was a
real jolt, and it took me several seconds of serious angst to recover my
ordinary perception of it.

>... diversionary arguments of this kind hamper progress. \snip\
>Bridges would not get built if architects argued over the meaning
>of a hole for the rivet.

"Diversionary?" "Meaning" is not what I've been talking about. The topic is
our understanding of reality, not the definitions of words. I have been
pointing out that our only experience of "reality" is internal, it is what
we make of our perceptions, and that it is flexible. "Reality" to one may be
"illusion" to another.

>>What so-called "psychic" phenomena demonstrate is that this intricate set of
>>agreements is not cast in concrete, that individuals are capable of revising
>>or expanding their agreements about "reality." In many different ways,
>>leading to a great variety of experiences. In other words, for those
>>persons, "reality" is redefined, temporarily or permanently.

Looked at this way, all the various categories and distinctions and
varieties of non-ordinary experience can be seen as elements in a
multiordinal spectrum. The defining parameters can vary widely, but it is
always the experiencer who governs that.

You and I probably see the people we meet in very similar ways -- but
Casta´┐Żeda's Don Juan "sees" them as balls of light. Some people see auras of
people and other living things. Some people see objects several thousand
miles away. The catalog is endless.

Our myriad agreements are in large part useful. They are not universal, they
are not eternal, they are not "outside" of us, but they are useful. When
they are not, they can be changed. But only if recognized as agreements.

Tom Carey

Date sent: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 22:15:31 -0800
From: Marilyn Huff
Subject: [Psi] I listened, did anyone else?

I have always known that I am a nut, a weirdo,
but I have always been curious about everything. And?????

We saw an offer from Jim Francis, (an Aussie), bless his heart.
"Lateral thinking" is his web site and his motto.

Was I the only one to take the risk and down load his PK Tester?
Or the only one crazy enough to take the risk of getting a virus?

It is very interesting. I remember a long time ago, when we tried to
bend spoons, "a la Uri Geller". I would feel something different and get
into a kind of state.

Jim's Tester goes off when I start to feel the same thing. What does
it mean?

Well, I saw Uri, bend a key with a 5 year old girl. He never touched the
key until the sweet 5 year old girl held it in two fingers. He touched
it, it bent, I was within 4 feet of the whole thing. The 5 year old didn't bend it
and it wasn't bent before the test. I know, I was there.

At the time our family tried spoon bending, our daughter did really
well. I could do it, but found it to take too much energy.

So, I don't know if the PK Tester works or not. But is fun to try.

Am I the only "NUT" that took the chance? (the really horrible thing is
that we have to worry about who will harm us.)

Fess Up, Guys...

Anyone doing better that I am? Yellow, very rarely some red. No white.
So I'm not tuned into PK.

From: Monika
Subject: RE: [Psi] I listened, did anyone else?
Date sent: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 09:09:46 +0100

Hi Marilyn and all,

I am new to this list and reading the mails for a few weeks.
Well, I must confess, I downloaded that PK tester, since i am
pretty ignorant about computers, the chance to catch a virus did
not cross my mind :-)

I also get a lot of yellow, sometimes a tiny bit red.

My 7 yr.old wanted to know how it works, I told him just
concentrate and try to make it red.

He looked at it for a minute, decided that it does not work,
walked away and said , darn thing, its all nonsense.
While he walked away, the swing got much stronger and it got
really red. I thought this was quite strange. Maybe it's the
letting go feeling which does something. Who knows if it
works, but your are right, its fun to try it.

Just to let you know, english is not my native language, hope I
still can make myself understood.

You all have a good day

Date sent: Mon, 02 Feb 1998 01:23:56 -0500
From: Thomas E Carey
Subject: Re: [Psi] I listened, did anyone else?

At 22:15 1/30/1998 -0800, Marilyn Huff wrote:
>Or the only one crazy enough to take the risk of getting a virus?

Well -- I tried. First attempt, the URL given wouldn't open. Emailed Jim, he
gave me another URL to use. That one opened, but I was unable to download
the program.
Go figure.

Tom Carey

From: Curran
Date sent: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 11:53:03 EST
Subject: Re: [Psi] I listened, did anyone else?

>gave me another URL to use. That one opened, but I was unable to download
>the program. Go figure.

Actually what Jim did not tell you was that being able to influence his
website was a requisite to getting the whole program dropped down onto your
computer. If you can use RV/PK to get it to release the data, then the PK
tester will be sent...of course getting it to release the data using RV/PK
would seem to negate needing to have the PK tester...but what the hell do I
know...I'm just a stupid Mick from the wrong side of the tracks in
Belfast...(who gets most of his comments bounced by PJ anyway..hahah)....

Date sent: Mon, 02 Feb 1998 10:17:53 -0800
From: Marilyn Huff
Subject: [Psi] PK Tester

I really don't understand why I was able to down load the thing. I'm
just getting used to a new computer and Win 95 and I did it. I never
download anything, because I'm just not computer literate, but it
worked for me. Of course, using the gadget, I seem to have no abilty
to do anything with it at all.

Good luck,


From: "Arlene Dockery
Subject: Re: [Psi] I listened, did anyone else?
Date sent: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 13:47:30 -0500

When I saw Marilyn's message, I decided to give it a try. I had no problem
entering or downloading. Now winning at the track or playing poker was
another story, absolutely no luck there. Wasn't quite sure on my reading of
the scale. I had alot of black, a little less yellow, about four lines of
red and then about ten lines of white. I accessed this at
maybe some luck but not much.

As far as not being able to download, after entering did you use your
username and password, exactly as given, meaning upper and lower case
lettering as indicated in instructions. Give it a try again. It is kinda
fun, and I do use it before heading off to the track.

Well, thats my two cents worth, as if anybody cares. I'll go back into my
world and read all the messages that all of you so loving post. Seriously, I
really do enjoy reading all your posts.

And what would it be like without all the different personalities. One of
these days I'm going to get my rv'ing attemps to work. I think I'm trying to

Regards To All,

Arlene Dockery

From: "Gulson and Associates"
Date sent: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 22:42:36 +0000
Subject: [Psi] PK

Well, I took the test too but since I am kind of computer illiterate, I
didn't worry ntoo much about the virus warning.....that kind of screen is
always coming up in my life.

Like Marilyn, I never got to the white band...Anyone who did???


From: "PJ Gaenir"
Date sent: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 15:21:14 +0000
Subject: Re: [Psi] Beliefs

Hiya Dan,

>There was a really menacing-looking fellow in Germany in the 50s,
>Bruno Groening, who was the real religious type - but a fabulous
>healer. There are groups all over the world invoking him and getting
>amazing results.

In the New Testament, Jesus refers to people casting out demons in
his name. (People unfamiliar with him personally, etc.) Interesting

Maybe they believed. I've always noted that all things were said to
be possible *through faith.* Not faith IN a specific thing or person
or religion -- just faith, period. I know when I've been in the zone
to really manifest things and changes in reality, it has always been
accompanied by a blissful acceptance of the fact that it actually
already 'was.' I guess that's faith. Sort of.

>why not invent a twin brother who never got the Jesus bug who can
>swap ideas with you ? So I'll be trying that out, once there are not
>101 things going on at once here.

Sounds like externalizing your inner knowledge maybe? Like
deliberately creating a "guide" to talk with about certain things?

>I'd say there, "'s one good way they can find what they have,
>but it certainly won't be the only way."

Of course. I did not mean to imply that a certain specific method is
the only way that mildly-talent psi folks will ever find what they
have. I meant to imply that since the talent is not strong enough to
manifest naturally, they are going to have to deliberately focus and
practice to make it manifest, they probably won't "find it"
otherwise. Sorry for not being clear.....


Date sent: Tue, 03 Feb 1998 19:30:59 -0800
From: Marilyn Huff
Subject: [Psi] Practrice

PJ: In the 70's I was involved in a Meditation Group, Christian
oriented. I saw some very interesting things happen there. I started to
see auras; unfortunately, it was usually just before someone became very
sick. I didn't understand enough about what was happening that I could
give anyone a warning.

The group was really looking for a way to help people. But like many
groups, things started to fall apart. Ego trips became common, and
worse, the fear trip. The prayers of protection got longer and longer. I
truly believe that fear took over the group.

But I saw small grey,black circles floating around a drug user. People
in the group got very sick. Even the drug user later admitted that he
understood that he carried the things with him. Again I didn't
understand what it meant and could not help.

We also took Poloroid pictures of one of the "Psychics" meditating. One
shot showed the man. The second shot showed the outline on an Indian
Brave in silhouette, complete with one feather and one braid, just over
the man's head. It was really weird, because my husband took the
picture; I knew it wasn't faked. I left the photos with the man.

I rarely see auras now. Still see the floating circles once in a while.
I haven't meditated in years.

I can't say that I think that I am psychic, but I do have intuitive
feelings once in a while. We have worked out a code word that I use to
remind my husband of many years, "I'm getting a feeling about this
thing. Please listen." I couldn't put it here, but he suggested it and
will never forget it.

Guess I should get back to the meditation. The good feelings of that
group were wonderful in the beginning. I guess what I am saying is the
the "Magic" is available, but some of us have to work at it.

PJ: Thanks so much for giving us this place to meet.


I agree with you, PJ, this "Magic" is something you have to work at.
Some people have it happen naturally, but what if we could all be tuned
in to the "Magic?"

Date sent: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 15:25:31 +1000
From: Mark
Subject: Re: [Psi] I listened, did anyone else?

Hi i also am pushing whites and reds from jims pk tester .Thought i would see if it was just a program so i purchased a digital timer .now when i do a run i record my colours ,times and dates.Speeking of spoon bending ,hanging from jims ceiling in his den is the most amazing collection of bent cutlery u will ever see. I believe this is one of jims party tricks. More mental magic.

From: USPsiSquad
Date sent: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 07:40:35 EST
Subject: [Psi] Fwd: auras

Marilyn: I hope you were thanking Joan (info4u) on that post.

I decided to write you because it seems you are a sincere seeker, as are we

Although the ability to see auras is not a psychic skill, merely an
unfocusing of the eyes to see the energy throwoff of the solid, whether a
human or whatever, the fact that you got a Polaroid of anything at all is

I learned to see them quite by accident, while practicing a card experiment
of Dr. Rhine's. At the time I had been told it WAS a psi skill and didn't
know any better, but the Franciscan monks who told me that also told me I
wasn't 'spiritual' enough to see auras. :)

I had to agree with them on that, but I could and did see them, and so I had
to draw my own conclusions which included that they were nothing to do with
the spiritual at all, no matter what Bro. Patrick and Bro. Christian thought.
That's the problem with this field, too many people think they are the only
authorities on something, and their information may be dead wrong.

Keep looking for new information.

Bevy J.

Date sent: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 07:59:43 -0800
From: Angela Thompson Smith
Subject: Re: [Psi] I listened, did anyone else?

Mark, the spoon mobile that Jim has hanging in his place is one that Dave
and I made for him as a gift when we visited Australia this year. The
spoons were bent by students in Dave's spoon bending workshops, which he
holds from time to time. Jim did not bend the spoons although many of his
Australia students did bend spoons during a workshop we held there in

Kind regards
Angela Thompson Smith
The Inner Vision Institute

From: Curran
Date sent: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 12:32:59 EST
Subject: Re: [Psi] I listened, did anyone else?

In a message dated 98-02-04 11:17:54 EST, you write:
<< Jim did not bend the spoons although many of his
Australia students did bend spoons during a workshop we held there in
October. >>

Fact of the matter is that spoon bending is still a parlor trick and tends to
confuse the serious issues and practice of can teach someone to bend
spoons in about ten minutes...some people can never learn to
RV...however..when folks see spoon bending going on they see it as an
extension of a larger phenomena related to RV...t'aint so like I
said..spoon bending is a parlor trick and I really really really wish the
folks who claim to teach RV would quit using this little bit of nonsense to
make a point....

Date sent: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 09:30:46 -0800
From: Marilyn Huff
Subject: [Psi] Auras

>From :Bevy J. -
>"Although the ability to see auras is not a psychic skill, merely an
>unfocusing of the eyes to see the energy throwoff of the solid, whether
>a human or whatever, the fact that you got a Polaroid of anything at all
>is interesting."

Yes, I really wish I had kept the Polaroid. I know it wasn't faked.

About 2 years ago I took a sales training class. It was 2 days, from
8:00 AM to 8:00 PM on Saturday & Sunday. You had to stay at the hotel,
because you were too bleary eyed to drive home on Saturday night. I
didn't think I would make it that last forty miles home after the
session. But That last evening, I started seeing Auras around everyone
in the room. Most people had yellow, pink, and blue. The instructor was
really something. I saw golden lines, not just a glow. It was spiked
lines, the only thing I could think was "Power."

His energy level was amazing. We were brain dead by the time it was
over. I can't honestly say the whole thing taught me much, but it was a
very interesting experience. He didn't stop talking at lunch. They
served lunch, he talked as we ate.

Another time, I was sitting in a class. A very fat, kid was in from of
me. I was really ill, and had to drop out of the class a few days later.
I kept thinking, "What a pig. I can't even see the instructor."

Suddenly, the fat kid was surrounded by a bright magenta aura, with
spiky lines, about 8 inches all the way around his body. I looked
around, no one else saw anything. I shook my head, opened & closed my
eyes, Looked for a light source. Nothing. After about 3 minutes it faded
away. Weird. What did it mean?

I don't ask for these things, but I surely would like to understand them

PJ: Love the Psi haven. How do you suppose we are going to end up using
all the information?

Thanks again,


End Archive #012 February 1998

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