firedocs archives

Public Viewer Email Group
Archive 035

This is an archive file of the public Viewer [VWR] email list. This list is sponsored by the private Viewer Forum, hosted by Paradigm Systems and Design, and owned and operated by PJ Gaenir. It is dedicated to discussion of the practical aspects, theories and experience of formal psychic methodologies such as Controlled Remote Viewing, and independent efforts by the public interested in working under the formal RV protocol (the set of rules which define "remote viewing" as the term was coined in a science lab). You can find details, rules, and a form for joining the email group here. The list is moderated during operation and archiving. I remove last names and detail locations of contributors (within the archives) for privacy, and signatures for space conservation. I have added notes marking the posts from former U.S. intelligence remote viewers. Archiving of posts is done manually and may not include all posts.

This is the thirty-fifth archive.

October 1997

> Art had said he had interviewed many Remote Viewers and most of >them said that could not view anything past the year 2005. I found >this quite alarming and was wondering if anyone could elaborate on >this.

PJ's right (as usual). So if "many remote viewers" means Ed alone (or perhaps Courtney too, and for the moment let's assume that Courtney got the idea from Ed, which therefore should only count as one "vote," not two ), then where did Ed get the idea of The Wall?

I think I've found it, just stumbling upon it in my travels upon the Internet. I've pasted below the relevent sections of a paper by "Val Valarian," a well-known UFO-Conspiracy writer (I won't call him a researcher) who was extremely popular back in the early 90's when Ed was hanging out in New Mexico and apparently had connections to the UFO community at the time. The date of the document is 1993. It is *highly likely* that Ed saw this document, or others like it, and I suspect that this is where "The Wall" came from [at this point in the document, which is an interview with some nameless someone, they are discussing the Montauk Project]:

Q: Are there potential futures that people could be sent to?

A: No. once you make the connection with the future the line becomes fixed to that point.

Q: Can you change the present by sending someone to the past?

A: Yes. You can also change the present by sending someone into the future. Under certain conditions. The government is using existing time machines to go forward in the Montauk time line.

Q: Are you saying that now the present can't be changed because we have established a time-loop through the future and the past?

A: Yes. That means whatever everyone is doing between the most extreme past point and the future they will be doing forever.

Q: What is the furthest anyone has traveled in the future?

A: 10,000 AD.

Q: So everything is locked in until 10.000AD?

A: Yes. It's a dreamlike reality. No one has picked up a tangible future beyond 2012 AD. There is a very abrupt wall there with nothing on the other side.

Q: Prophecies speak of earth changes around then.

A: Curious, isn't it? [end quoted material]

Curious indeed...<g>


Moderator's Note: Ah yes, the 2012 thing has been a big deal for many years, since the Mayan calendar seems to end (or re-cycle) at that point. Then in 1992-3 the McKenna brothers published their "time-wave zero" theories and computer program suggesting a specific date around then for... interesting things. A number of native prophecies are around there as well. In short, everybody wanted millenial hysteria I guess, but since 2005 and 2012 already had interesting things assigned to them, our culture was willing to wait a few years before insisting the world end or something. It may be true that something changes around then, who knows. But if a remote viewer "can't View it," it would only be because they are not conceptually capable of understanding it. (Something which, in the case mentioned, would not surprise me.) -- PJ

>I have tried and successfully did something once which could have >been remote viewing. Other times I have tried and didn't really see >much of anything except for the reflection from the bright light.

Sounds like you are expecting the perceptions to be visual...I know it's called remote viewing and you would expect that, but...

Often the perceptions come as *ideas* rather than visuals. In fact really stable highly visual perceptions are often inaccurate. Instead many people, including me, have experienced something more like the idea of red, rather than literally seeing a flash of color. Or perhaps you do see a flash of color, but it's sandwiched in between other perceptions, very rapidly. Don't expect this to be like normal physical sensories, this is a different language.

Like the hunches you describe below, for most people these are pretty subtle. Remote viewing is more like that.

>What I want to know is... how do you know you are actually doing it >[rv]? Are there any web pages or anything that points to the prep >and what you should feel like or see?

Best source of info on the subject is: http://www.paradigm-sys/firedocs/

You may already have found this page, seein' as you subscribed to this list. If you look around there, PJ has a document that adapts Controlled Remote Viewing techniques for non-trained viewers. Try some of her suggestions, they're good ones.

>I know I can perceive how people are feeling pretty easily and >sometimes predict things that are going to happen (out of the blue, >not when I attempt to do it). How does one focus on these type of >things? The latter I'm sure is not rv'ing, but what exactly is?

Actually reading other people's state of mind and emotions *is* part of remote viewing, although it's a little more advanced than beginners usually undertake.

>Odd questions? I'm really interested but kind of confused (nor can >I afford a $200 to 2000 course right now).

Don't worry, you'll get tons of free advice here! ;-)


Moderator's note: the documents Skye is referring to are on the "Fire's Personal Archives" page, under BBS Posts / The View From Here, titled "RV Tips for Newbies." -- PJ

>I know I can perceive how people are feeling pretty easily and >sometimes predict things that are going to happen (out of the blue, not when I attempt to do it). How does one focus on these type of things? The latter I'm sure is not rv'ing, but what exactly is?

Actually you can go to the past or future with remote viewing. You can be sent to a particular time and place as part of the original tasking, or your monitor can move you around during a session, or you can move yourself around, if you don't have a monitor working with you.

RVers, as a class, are not into limitation by time and space, or much else for that matter. Hang around this mailing list for awhile and you'll see what I mean. ;-)


You ask if there was any effort to control the turn off at the target... Flashbacks were very common the military unit especially to the folks using the ERV method of RV. ERV called for the individual to enter a very definite and easily discernable altered state. In this state they had little if any sense of coordination or clear grasp on reality. They were prone to falling, walking into walls, closed doors and chairs in the way. As a monitor I had to be quite conscious of this fact and "protect" my Viewers until they were "fully awake". When a flashback occurred they were trained not to pursue them... leave them be... only do RV while in formal sessions etc. as a matter of personal safety. Folks who were in an altered state and walked into walls were not ideal candidates to put behind the wheel of a car, and much like calling up a website once makes it twice as easy to pop back into that website... a viewer in altered state at a particular target who attempted to pursue a flashback would quickly jump right back into the altered state.... We generally made sure our viewers did not do anything that would endanger them for at least two hours after a session especially driving.... Regards...Gene Kincaid.....

[Archive Note: Gene Kincaid, former U.S. Intell RV]

Moderator's Note: Ha! Interesting concept, comparing it to web downloads. An RV memory cache. There's probably a Swannism for that, somewhere.... -- PJ

You wanted to know how a monitor or viewer can accept a target from a customer without front loading...

We do that now with a small group of viewers who use this skill to find missing persons, do a little future reading, or do a little search just to keep in shape. When we accept a tasking they (the customer) comes through me on referral from someone else who may have used us in the past or knows what we are doing. I caution them from day one to only provide me information when I specific ask for it and then only exactly what I ask for... nothing more. I also tell them I will send them interim reports from the viewing sessions with my analysis of the data. They are cautioned this is only a courtesy and not an invitation for praise or critique. Take the data and file it away and do not respond to it until they are asked. After about six or seven sessions with as many as six viewers, I will formulate a larger analysis indicating very specific items in the analysis which I will ask the customer to comment upon such as a name which has popped up, a vivid description of a building, specific person, a region etc... When I give this data I ask the customer simply to reply if this item or that item has a special relevence... nothing more... just if it has special relevance... I use this to fine tune the viewer to specific items which need to be clarified and to avoid areas which are non-relevant or at least not relevant at this time... This way I, as the monitor keep a high degree of anonymity and impartiality and can give the customer an honest go for their time.... Regards... Gene

[Archive Note: Gene Kincaid, former U.S. Intell RV]

>>I again refer everyone to the great Theodore Sturgeon book...

And I would call everyone's attention to the works of Carl Jung about a century earlier, who said the same thing but in scientific terms as the universal collective consciousness... (sorry to toss out what little bit of eruditeness that I might have... I am after all just a ignorant Irishman from the wrong side of the tracks in Belfast)... Gene\

[Archive Note: Gene Kincaid, former U.S. Intell RV]

Dear Vic,

you wrote: <<Nancy, you lost me on the "Host" extension.>>

Host = God.

Oops! is that politically incorrect on the list? it seems to me that we are (albeit powerful, as you pointed out so wonderfully) just little specks in the vastness of the infinite universe, and the wonder of RV is we can begin to percieve it. V-rati, indeed! What a wonderful term. If you made it up, I rise to bow.

Halloween, yow! I want to hear more about the worlds coming together!. Which two? There are so many...... love, Nancy

Hi Nancy;

As soon as I can think of a way to tie Irish folk lore into RV I will fill you in.

BTW I really enjoy your enthusiasm.

Best wishes

May the Force be with you,


[Archive Note: Liam, former U.S. Intell RV]

A dream and a thankyou. Yesterday when I entered the room within my mind, I found a blackboard, and easel. On the blackboard, in chalk, a book, a magic wand, and a wizards hat. And a conductor tapping to get attention. Good, I thought, I have been asking the universe for a teacher. Then last night, I dreamed I was to look around the most beautiful picture gallery in the world. I had to go down 5 or 6 vertical steps into a basement. Inside there were the most wondrous pictures. Some in oils, some in frames. I was given a picture without a frame to hold, I was told it was worth over 2 million. The ones that filled me with awe and rapture, filled whole walls, like a 180% cinema, and were almost like holograms, in radiant blue. I felt I could just reach in and touch. Yet they were no thicker than a photographic slide. I was mesmerised.

I hardly ever remember my dreams, and when I do, they are always meaningful and profound, and bear important messages. I thought I would share it, as it was so powerful.

Also a thankyou. Thankyou to all of you, who have written to me direct and on the list, with such welcome, encouragement and assistance. Such kindness and support is rare in this day and age and is greatly appreciated. Big kiss.


I'm finally back on line. Took 5 weeks to get my hard drive replaced and several days to comb through the 1000+ msgs waiting for me.

Paul: Yes...the Captain is still alive and present in D.C. I have been heart-broken to hear about Angel. There are occasionally remarkable ties between a member of the animal kingdom and us two-leggeds. It was a true blessing to have had such a wonderful (and humorous) connection with Angel.

PJ: Thanks for keeping me subscribed. There are some thoughts I have had, but it seems that many of the members have already addressed these.

One comment: I sincerely believe that folks should give up on attempting to procure the military RV manual. If any copies exist [sic], they are (probably) well secured. Some things must be dealt with gently, and this is one such situation. I used to feel that as the last CRVer in STARGATE, it was my responsibility, albeit assumed, to protect the phenomenon from the exploitors, the egomaniacs and the unenlightened. However, after literally years of debate with Paul, I see now that Remote Viewing, and the knowledge thereof, is similar to what what's-his-name (Redfield, is it?) wrote about in THE CELESTINE PROPHECY; that is, this may, in fact, be one of the tools the Creator has given us to help bring the global spiritual consciousness into being.

I still must remain relatively low-keyed for a little while longer. However, things are moving extremely fast within certain government agencies and a new openness concerning RV will soon be a reality. Regards,

Greg "Sloan"

[Archive Note: Greg Sloan, former U.S. Intell RV]

Moderator's Note: The Raven returns. Wondered where you went. Some of the other intell Viewers have been here defending the faith while you were gone. Visit the private Viewer Forum and participate in there, since you're still classified, it's a little more open, less moderated and so on. If you don't have your access info anymore, send me email. -- PJ

>I'm finally back on line. Took 5 weeks to get my hard drive replaced and >several days to comb through the 1000+ msgs waiting for me.

Hey! Good to see you're back. I wondered what happened to you. You should have called. I could have come over and fixed it for you in an hour or so, or you could have brought it to the house, if you wanted some alone time in the deep woods of our little valley. Once again, I didn't get out while the tobacco was in bloom and get you some for trading with the Indians. I keep meaning to each year, and each year, keep putting it off until the farmers have chopped all the flower pods off and there's none left to collect.

You're right, PJ, this message has nothing to do with CRV, the topic of this mail list, but you do have to admit that this sentence does.

Just glad to see Greg join us again.


[Archive Note: Lyn Buchanan, former U.S. Intell RV]

Moderator's Note: Yes, but the rules are giving the readers a chance to see your rather sweet-but-twisted sense of humor in action.... -- PJ

Greg wrote: There are occasionally remarkable ties > between a member of the animal kingdom and us two-leggeds.

Hi Greg,

It sounds as if you are native or follow the native way.

I used to feel that as the last > CRVer in STARGATE, it was my responsibility, albeit assumed, to protect > the phenomenon from the exploitors, the egomaniacs and the unenlightened.

The last CRVer. That sounds like a good title for a book. Maybe we could sell the movie rights and then... what is that Paul. Oh. Sorry Greg it has already been done (sorry PJ, I'll be good). Seriously Greg, I am very excited to see you as a member of the group. I am still working for the government also, so I can understand the need to be careful.

Hope to be hearing more from you in the future.

Best wishes

May the Force be with you,


[Archive Note: Liam, former U.S. Intell RV]

Moderator's Note: A big job, defending the universe of Remote Viewing. Use THE FORCE, Luke! -- PJ

Hi all.

PJ if you bear with me a second I will try and show how bread pudding relates to RV.

My mother,God rest her soul, grew up during the depression. Because of this she never liked to waste food. When ever any bread was in danger of going bad she made it into bread pudding. We kids were happy because we had a dessert, but to be perfectly honest, it was not very good bread pudding. But growing up in unenlightened times and in an Irish family (mother was a Kelley) we knew that to complain would only get you the thick end of a serving spoon upside your head or across your knuckles and a lecture on the potato famine. So we ate our bread pudding and tried to look grateful.

Then one friday mother packed school lunches for me and my six siblings. But to our dismay, school was cancelled due to bad weather. It being friday, and we being a good catholic family, the sandwiches she made for us were peanutbutter. My mother now had a problem; she had all these peanutbutter sandwiches that no one was going to eat. Soooo she made bread pudding from the sandwiches. It was great. Best bread pudding I ever had. We told all our friends and soon thier mothers were making bread pudding with peanutbutter.

40 years later I and my siblings still make bread pudding with peanutbutter. It was, and still is, obvious that my mother had made a major breakthrough in the realm of bread pudding (something like Chuck Yeager breaking the sound barrier for the first time).

PJ here is the tie in. My mother had made a major discovery by chance, or if you will by the grace of God and the good Saint Patrick. We spread the news of that accidental breakthrough by word of mouth to the rest of the world. This applies to RV and any discoveries or insights we may come upon. We can use this Email forum to spread those insights to the rest of the Rv communitty.

Thanks for staying with me on this one. Even if you do not agree with me at least you have learned how to make a decent bread pudding

warmest regards

May the Force be with you,


[Archive Note: Liam, former U.S. Intell RV]

>PJ if you bear with me a second I will try and show how bread pudding >relates to RV.

Now being a lover of bread pudding (I make it with chocolate) I am DYING to get the recipe for peanut butter variety. Clearly, we must thank the Irish for such a treat. It sounds delectable!

However, realizing that my postings must conform to the charter of this mailing list, I must ask the more experienced viewers for tips on the finer points of remote viewing Liam's mother making peanut butter bread pudding.

And perhaps that precious advice might be accompanied by feedback in the form of the actual recipe, which I promise not to look at until after I have done the target.

Mmm! Chocolate Peanut Butter Bread Pudding!

Rick S

Moderator's Note: For all I know, Bread Pudding IS related to RV -- I've never had it. Heard about it from old English literature books. However, my remote viewing session on this subject tells me that the gestalt is a natural manmade; and that it contains multiple colors, perhaps browns, soft texture, sweet taste, though I had trouble with the dimensionals, as it seemed to be a lumpy blob. It invokes a positive psychological response in the targeted person thinking about eating it, who for ethics sake I must mention was certainly NOT Liam, since I would never of course target another Viewer without asking permission... -- PJ

Greg said: "one of the tools the Creator has given us to help bring the global spiritual consciousness into being"

BINGO!, I knew there was a reason I am gonna' give Paul all my money <b poor g>

"and a new openness (in the .gov) concerning RV will soon be a reality"

Greg- you tease! or shall we nominate you for the RV "hero of the year" award. Has somebody been "R. I.-ing" or maybe non-R.I.-ing out there in "viewerland"?

Liam said: "we can use this Email forum to spread those insights to the rest of the RV community"

AMEN! Ya'll are! (Ya'll- slang for cosmic unity)

George said: simultaneously "in control (seeking data)" and "relinquishing control (not analyzing the data)"

WOW! The Paradox, MRV- "mystical" RV. I can see "it" George, I just can't "view" "it" (.....yet).

Blessings, Vic

P.S.- Can't you put Irish whiskey in bread pudding?


>This message likely is a classic case of rushing in where angels fear to >tread. Liam will probably set me straight. snip

Hi Liam here, hey, it makes sense to me. At least at the gut level. I do not worry to much about the intellectual level. Real perceptive of you Tom. Tom, I do not how you could think I would set you straight. I have shown you nothing but kindness, despite the terrible allegations you made about me having some weird celtic sickness.

>I haven't told him yet >about the leprechaun I saw once, little guy in a brown jumper, sitting on >a nice big rock by the side of the road in Northern Ontario, comfortable >as a snail he looked. About 50 miles from anywhere it was.

Liam again. The first Leprechaun I saw was in California. He was sitting at the foot of my bed at about three in the morning. I must admit that earlier I had taken a few drops of Irish wiskey for the improving of the day.

While we are on the subject; October 31 is the last day of the Celtic year. This is the time the two worlds are the closest together and it is easiest to go from one to the other. It is a good idea to leave a wee bit of milk and a wee bit of wiskey outside your door on that night for the "little folk." Hey it can't hurt.

Warmest regards to all

May the Force be with you,


Hi all;

I and my wife Sandy, take off tomorrow for England. Please nobody call them and warn them. I have a hard enough time getting into the UK when I catch them by surprise. We will be back Monday. By then I look forward to having a lot of mail in my box. Anybody need anything from London or Rye. No Gene, I will not deliever a package for you.

Warmest regards

May the Force be with you,


[Archive Note: Liam, former U.S. Intell RV]

Liam wrote: >>While we are on the subject; October 31 is the last day of the Celtic >>year. This is the time the two worlds are the closest together and it is >>easiest to go from one to the other.

Well, what a coincidence. Halloween day is my two year Remote Viewing anniversary, so to speak. It was Halloween of 1995 when David Purseglove and I, in email conversation about the ethics of psi abilities (TK, in that discussion), got onto the subject of RV; he'd recently met Lyn Buchanan at a private conference and with his personal reference, Lyn responded to my inquiry the next day. And so began a journey of sorts.

I have two years worth of thanks to David for introducing me, to Lyn for educating me philosophically and personally as well as via official training, to Joe for endless emails and explanations and friendship, to Paul Smith, Gene "Kincaid", Ed May and a few others for answering questions and providing me some of their own education (different in each case), and to all these folks and more I haven't mentioned, for being willing to support my honest efforts to learn everything about RV -- people, history, practice, theory, potentials, science, applications, whatever. I am grateful for the support my projects have gotten -- and I'm educated by it, as are many people, thanks to these guys taking the time for me, for the groups, for the public, for the subject.

I've gotten to care about some of the people in this field personally, as well as any other way. For all the confusion and frustration the bizarre media and murky politics sometimes create, the RV field finds itself with an incredibly intense group of brilliant people who are creative and compassionate as well, and in the end, it comes down to them being more than worth the effort to have taken the time to really learn about.

So if Halloween is the Celtic meeting of the worlds -- well, that sums it up for me, too. I consider Halloween my 'RV anniversary.' Glad to have you all around for it.


>But my point is, I believe that you can become a reasonably good >beginner from a book or tape, and then utilise an instructor who can >push you to becoming a good practitioner.

I do, too. But the important part here is that you then utilize an instructor who can then push you to becoming a good practitioner. I also believe that one can learn from a community of people, practice and expert, or even a group of earnest beginners. After all, the earliest people who practiced karate had no instructors. They had their open hands and a bunch of mean Samurai breathing down their backs. The thing I fear (and this will happen) is that people will get these tapes and suddenly hang out shingles declaring themselves as trained RVers. Such actions can (will) do a lot of damage to the reputation that CRV has worked hard to build up.

>There are lots of people out there practicing now, and from what I've seen >of PSITECH's website, they are getting positive, though rudimentary, >results.

As for whether or not Ed's tape is good for learning to remote view, it probably is for some people. I'm not giving a value judgement on people's ability to learn something from anything, no matter what. I see the various wierd shapes of experimental airplanes and it amazes me at the wonderful variety of things which >>don't<< fall from the sky. By the same token, I am constantly amazed by people's ability to glean good, usable information from the barest scraps of offerings. I am saying that tapes give just what you said above - rudimentary results. That's not just Ed's tapes, but anyone's how-to tapes along this line would do the same.

I have never been against the idea of an "Introduction to _RV" tape or book. You have the understanding that there is more to be learned afterwards. Some people won't have that same understanding, and it is for those people that I am against the whole concept of a tape which says, "Watch my tape and you will be an RVer". It is for those people that I stand by my feelings and prior statements on this.


[Archive Note: Lyn Buchanan, former U.S. Intell RV]

>them to his manual, insisting that they go as a separate document. The >"separate document" has since been lost, but the material which was in it >is now a part of the manual I use for training my students.

Thought I'd add a bit more background here. It was awhile ago, but I remember this exchange now that Lyn has brought it back to mind. I do recall Lyn offering some further material to be included in the original DIA CRV manual, and he's probably right--it has no doubt "disappeared," most probably into the basement of Langley (I hope that's where it is--if not, that means some panic-stricken manager in the past shredded it along with many other significant documents that met a premature end due to bureaucratic ineptitude).

Lyn's material was not included in the document because that particular manual was only intended to reflect as closely as possible what Ingo had taught us under the auspices of the training contract INSCOM had with SRI. I was assigned by the unit commander (at the time a lieutenant colonel), through Skip and with his assistance, to produce an "Ingo-pure" document, and at that time was not to add any of the "lessons learned" (and there was plenty besides Lyn's contributions that could have been added) of practical application of CRV in intelligence collection.

As far as that manual is concerned, the overview/intro appears to have been primarily authored by Joe McMoneagle. The theory, structure, and Stage I thru III sections were written primarily by me, with considerable input from the others who had been trained by Ingo. The Stage IV thru VI portion was also written by me, with much input from Tom "Nance," who at that time was the only one who had completed Ingo's training thru Stage VI, and from Skip Atwater, who was heavily involved in the contracting of SRI/Ingo training, and had been thoroughly briefed on the entire CRV structure and process as it was developed.

Skip and I (and others, including Lyn) later tossed around the notion of drafting an additional "operational" remote viewing manual that WOULD include all the practical stuff we'd learned, and probably cover ERV techniques as well. But it would have been a monumental effort, so we kept putting it off in favor of all the other things we had to do (to include operational RV projects). Then Skip retired, which took away a big chunk of the institutional knowledge; and then politics shoved its nose under the edge of the tent; and in the end the "practical" manual never got written. However, the extant CRV manual is still a very useful guide for someone teaching CRV who has the adequate exprience to know how to use it. But again, Lyn is right--trying to learn CRV from it in a "do-it-yourself" mode would likely be an exercise in frustration and futility.

Enjoy! Paul

[Archive Note: Paul Smith, former U.S. Intell RV]

Paul H. Smith wrote: > ...and at that time was not to add any of the "lessons learned" > (and there was plenty besides Lyn's contributions that could have been > added) of practical application of CRV in intelligence collection.


Thank you very much for your precisions. They're very usefull in the understanding of what's going on now in the RV community.

This leads me to ask you some questions : 1/ Would * from your point of view* this "never got written manual" be substantially different from Lyn's present CRV training manual ?

2/ If yes, would you write now (alone or collectively-with-other mili-RVers-contributions) this complementary manual if supported for that (by a public subscription for example) ?

3/ Could you please tell us why you *personnaly* did opt rather to train people in CRV than in ERV (I mean in the civilian field) ?

And thanks once again for your enlightening input concerning the mili RV background.


Charles wrote: >(snip) >Generally, memory gets a bad name as a party to producing AOL.

Hence the "R" in STRAY CAT (Subliminal Transfer of RECOLLECTIONS.... etc.)

>.......may >throw somelight on RV (especially if you accept that memory is a >filter that correct data has to "pass" through).

or not pass through, or that incorrect data may or may not pass through. It is a very poor filter, and like all the other filters we have, is regulated by fear, logic, yearnings, etc.

FMS (False Memory Syndrome) is alive and well in the CRV session, and must be dealt with.

Hey, if it were easy, everybody'd be doing it.


[Archive Note: Lyn Buchanan, former U.S. Intell RV]

October 1997

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