firedocs archives

Public Viewer Email Group
Archive 042

This is an archive file of the public Viewer [VWR] email list. This list is sponsored by the private Viewer Forum, hosted by Paradigm Systems and Design, and owned and operated by PJ Gaenir. It is dedicated to discussion of the practical aspects, theories and experience of formal psychic methodologies such as Controlled Remote Viewing, and independent efforts by the public interested in working under the formal RV protocol (the set of rules which define "remote viewing" as the term was coined in a science lab). You can find details, rules, and a form for joining the email group here. The list is moderated during operation and archiving. I remove last names and detail locations of contributors (within the archives) for privacy, and signatures for space conservation. I have added notes marking the posts from former U.S. intelligence remote viewers. Archiving of posts is done manually and may not include all posts.

This is the forty-second archive.

October 1997

Hi Darryl,

>>If I frontloaded with the info that a boy named John Smith....

I guess I have never understood, out of the approximately 10 million questions there are to address with RV (both feedback-able and not), and that's just by Tuesday ;-), why the targets new Viewers so dearly want to do are the ones that they know so much about already.

I guess it's a matter of wanting to "do something" that directly affects life; to feel personally needed and useful with the RV. This is great. But one of the toughest parts of structured RV is the psychology. And one of the many aspects of that is, there is always a sense of "not knowing the final answer." Not knowing the puzzle picture. If you don't have that sense, except in rare sessions, your data is probably personal overlay issues and not target data. Remote Viewers don't identify for the most part; they describe. The need to identify is one of the more difficult psychological issues facing Viewers that they have to learn to deal with. It really is not easy and you don't know how difficult this is until you actually start doing it. It almost translates to a 'tip of the tongue' experience except much fuller of course, and it's frustrating.

This need to do targets that already, in fact, have most of the descriptive elements nailed down, and mostly just need some kind of identification, is to me representative of this issue. Everybody wants to know the answer. A lot of people are drawn to psychic work because they want to know the answer. Learning RV in a way is like they say about learning anything... the more you know, the less you realize you know. And that goes for each session to some degree too.

Actually this isn't limited to 'just new Viewers.' I even see experienced students who know better allowing themselves to be frontloaded by someone "enthusiastic" about the tasking, especially when there's multiple sessions involved on live cases. It's very disappointing, but I guess it's a good example of the fact that self-discipline is a hard row to hoe no matter how experienced you are.

There is really a desperate shortage of good taskers in the RV community. Unfortunately most "Viewbies" (as Vic so delightfully dubbed new Viewers), since they haven't really had much training in that aspect of CRV, don't understand that there are plenty of important things to know, and rules to follow, for taskers, just like there are for monitors, just like there are for analysts, just like there are for Viewers. Asking friends to think up targets for you is only good if you can really spell out to them ahead of time the criteria for this, and unless you can trust them to intelligently follow that, and to not communicate with you about it in any way but sending you the #s.

Is it better to do a target with no feedback or bad tasking than not do one? Maybe not. Practice time is hard to come by. If you're a student and still learning, utilize it, make it worthwhile, don't let yourself be wasted by the psychic junk food of aliens and so on. Once you're experienced in RV, you can target anything your heart desires, and personally, I have a whole list of aliens I'd like to know more about. But until you are really experienced, the purpose of practice is to LEARN, and doing any target that has not got the maximum potential for your LEARNing something (besides not to trust your tasker!) is pointless.

>>they had been murdered in a location, but set myself the target cueing of "describe the event, and all participants". Then when and if they catch the murderer/s I compare the emerged events to my rv session (feedback) can this be classed as remote viewing.

Tasking yourself to high emotional-impact targets, although these can sometimes be used by certain types of RV instructors so that students can get some effect (and feel it's working), is probably not a great idea for new Viewers. There are a lot of things to work out and work through in RV, nearly all of which boil down to "yourself." At this point you simply don't have the experience, I am guessing, to do such a high-impact target without the effect of the session experience overwhelming (or at the least overlaying) you and your data.

I realize your example was probably an allegorical example and not a real-life question. But were it a real-life question, I would say, there are some ego issues involved in the desire to RV this target. If you want to be a messiah or savior, RV is not the road to take for that. That tendency, combined with the experience of psychic development, can contribute to some imbalance in the individual's psychology. The RV field in general has a few rather notorious examples of this already. If you (meaning "you" to readers at large) have these kinds of tendencies and know it, seek out a teacher who will recognize this, who is not given to that themselves, and who won't let you get away with that kind of ego self-stimulation.

Also, many issues concerning feedback in that case would be a problem and may affect your session (prior to their existence). I won't go into them here.

>>Because although I have frontloaded, the actual target I have no info on, so it should be valid.

If it's a dire emergency and you have to task yourself with something, you can rationalize this. Targeting the unknown is the best choice in a rather poor set of choices in that case. Most instructors will tell you this because everybody wants to know how it COULD be done if it HAD to be done. But it should not be necessary.

>>If not is there any way of tasking a target that you are personally interested in

You can make a revolving target pool of at least 150 targets of widely varied kinds. Then if you practice every day, the odds are you'll get that target sometime in the next few years. ;-) What a terrible answer, huh?

The real answer is: "targeting yourself on things you know is not remote viewing. It is psychic work." Without the RV protocol, it isn't RV, that's the only thing that really separates "psychic" vs. "remote viewing" anyway. No matter what the method.

>>targeting an aspect you know nothing about then awaiting feedback from a future source?

This is workable, but this is not practical for students. Immediate feedback is much better for the learning process, for a long list of reasons I won't bore you with in this already-long message (and half of which even I don't know).


Hi Darryl,

>>I know that the trained CRVers say that there is no manual publically available because it is best learnt with a tutor,

This is true -- it is. However, the people best qualified to write a $7.95 paperback on the subject are making $3000 to teach it to you in person, so your chance of seeing one soon is dim. ;-) That aside --

I honestly believe that anybody who really knows and understands the CRV methodology would not really have it otherwise. I had planned to take training, and then share what I could with my friends who were interested. I had planned to document it so well I had my own manual. But all personal training really did for me was convince me that personal training was probably necessary. It really ticked off my friends, as you can imagine. Suddenly I was saying, "It isn't fair to you, to me, or to RV to have me give you some reader's digest second-hand version of this. Go learn." They thought maybe I'd gotten some kind of "I know a secret" complex. But honestly, I just had a respect for the value of it that I hadn't had before personal training.

I've had plenty of people email me and offer to come by my house and hand me pretty decent sums of money to teach them what I've learned -- because it would be less for them than going directly to Paul or Lyn for example. Even when I've really needed the money, I've refused. I want people to learn properly from people truly experienced and I care too much about RV to see it done otherwise. Certainly not just for making a buck. You can learn plenty of stuff on your own. Some exceptionally disciplined people who learn well via writing can even learn most everything they need on their own (-- eventually). But for most of the world, a teacher is very helpful.

Your teacher's role is not just to teach you to remote view. It is to offer you the chance to communicate with them or their group, so they can recognize when your own development issues are beginning to effect your RV development (such as in the never-ending parade of RV students who decide they are personally here to save the planet from, or for, aliens, the government, the Archangels, or what have you). It is to function as a source for good tasking and good analysis so you can learn about other important aspects of cRV through their work with you. And more. It is more than the time you spend in class, in other words.

>>surely it would be best for the rving community to allow public access especially as the CRVers do seem to feel that CRV is probably the best methodogy.

There is not a lot of serious competition at this point to CRV, but that doesn't mean it's some kind of cosmic wonder -- in the future, maybe there will be. Right now, the only other "methods" are in fact this or that guy's personal favorite-and-fun take on CRV. In other words, derivatives, often based on incomplete knowledge or experience, or worse, on incomplete training in even the original methods. (This doesn't mean they're not worth anything; many people find them very useful, and I'm sure they are. Plenty of people are probably very good RVrs as a result of serious talent and dedication and those methods.) It just means that if you're going to list the "types" of RV training available, right now there is "CRV" and "Derivatives of CRV" and not much else (no military people who worked with ERV teach it). In the future maybe that will change.

On a personal note, "the RV community" (and everybody has their own list of who that includes, or doesn't) is best served by keeping the fringe lunacy to a minimum and focusing on the science, the applications, the discipline of proper practice, and real-world feedback or results. I don't actually know that making a manual for the public on CRV -- which could not possibly contain all you need to know unless it were about as long as Ingo Swann's never-ending online book, now that I think of it as the perfect example -- would really help the RV field.

All it would really do is allow a lot of members of the public to be sure that they know everything about CRV because they bought a manual. And worse, then to go teach others "their version" of "CRV" because they read the manual and they're sure they're an expert. Eventually "CRV" means nothing. Everybody has their own version which may or may not be all that useful. So far, what credibility CRV has had, has been due to the few people teaching it taking it very seriously. Other people teaching other derivatives have harmed CRV's reputation just by being associated with RV in any way, alas. Most people "in the RV community" don't want to see any more of that. They're afraid that publishing a detailed manual would probably create a tiny number of real developing-experts and a huge number of wanna-be instant-experts. It just isn't worth the trade-off.

>>I don't want to be negative but I feel that this is a bit strange for CRVers to try and help the rving community all around the world, but then say you can't learn CRV unless with us, and on a course for a sum of money.

That's a good point, and let me address it. I don't want CRV to be seen as a religion, which that sounds suspiciously like. ;-)

CRVs are trying to help the RVing community -- that's why some are on this list. But while they offer to train CRV, they are not necessarily trying to 'help' you by trying to train you in CRV for free. They are simply willing to help people who are using other forms of RV, or who are pursuing psychic functioning in an RV protocol on their own. They know that many people are learning new forms of RV that could benefit from an experienced CRV's insight, and many psychics want to benefit from the lessons learned in CRV. Not everybody has the money to take a class. So for those who don't, the CRV instructors make themselves available to answer questions to the public at large, via this list. Quite nice of them in my opinion. So, if you're learning one methods derivative through a videotape or another through an online 'manual,' or you are teaching yourself RV thanks to a book like MIND TREK, and you have questions, you have an outlet for them; you have experts willing to help you with them, for free, because they believe in the development of psi abilities in mankind, and they want their experience to be of benefit to you.

Millions of people (demand) are interested in RV, and just a few (supply) people with experience are available to teach it. They've spent 15+ years of their life working in it or with it to get that expertise. Now they're making a living at training in it. A lot more time is invested into each student (those who want to communicate, anyway) than what is spent during training time. These guys make less than some many airline pilots and frankly, there are more advanced airline pilots around than there are advanced remote viewers. I don't really begrudge them the right to make a living, even a good living, at teaching what they've learned.

** I understand your frustration at feeling separated from the training opportunity. I would be too. But despite the value of training, RV is about innate talent and discipline, and not about "buying your way into expertise." Even the teachers selling training believe this. That's why they're here, on the VWR list, offering to help the public for free. **

Take heart. It is my intuitive feeling that within the next few years there will be a lot more opportunities around the world for CRV training at very reasonable cost.


>If I frontloaded with the info that a boy named John Smith....

Dear Darryl,

I'm afraid that the whole purpose of "frontloading" has escaped many people. Frontloading has no other purpose than to keep a viewer from having to contend with the entire universe at the beginning of the session. It ABSOLUTELY has to be "neutral" in nature, in that it cannot give away any information about >>>what the target is<<<.

If you give someone the frontloading that "A boy named John Smith....", you have just told them >>>what the target is.<<< If, instead, you said, "The target is a person", you have just told them >>>what kind of work they will be doing<<<.

If, let's say, the tasking were that a boy named John Smith turned up missing, and the police want to know WHERE TO FIND HIM. Then, the frontloading would be nothing more than, "The target is a location." Let's say that the tasking were to describe the sequence of events surrounding the murder in the Jonbennet or the OJ cases (or Marilyn Monroe or anyone else - even the boy named John Smith). The frontloading would be nothing more than, "The target is an event." That doesn't tell the viewer what the target is, but does tell the viewer what kind of work he/she will be doing in this session. That's all frontloading is, and that's all it is for. Anything more than that will mess the viewer up.

Some good advice about frontloading, especially for viewbies, is to limit frontloading to one of the following phrases (you can expand later, when you know more about viewing, frontloading, and how improper frontloading can screw up a viewer): "The target is a person" "The target is a location" "The target is an activity" "The target is an event" "The target is a situation" (even that one is for more advanced targets).

The "frontloading" you gave in the above example is not frontloading, it is front-burdening. I have a slide I use in seminars when talking about frontloading. It shows all the cargo placed onto the front of a ship, and what that does to the ship... it sinks it.


[Archive Note: Lyn Buchanan, former U.S. Intell RV]

> This experience that is being described is called the hypnogogic > state.

Hi - I'm a highly visual person. As a matter of fact, I'm a photographer. The only time I've experienced sound was, in fact, as John says, during a hynagogic state - I was laying down, my eyes were closed and I *heard* a blanket being open over me. I *felt* it settle over my body. My eyes snapped open with the intention of telling the person I was with that I wasn't cold and didn't need the blanket. Well, no blanket to be seen anywhere - just a blank stare then a grin from my companion. I mean . . . I HEARD that blanket being opened.

I do, however, feel that it's not necessarily a hynagogic state if there's sound.


Rick L

You have asked some very good questions, and I would like to send the questions and my answers to the CRV mail list for further comment by other military viewers, students, etc. Your name and email address will be taken off to preserve your privacy. The moderator will have final sayso about what is needed and appropriate for the mail list, but your questions are of value and should be seen by more people. Thanks. If you are not on the CRV mail list, you should look at the Firedocs web page: and sign up for the mail list. It is a very valuable learning tool.

>1. When Targetting someones mind, is it possible to acquire that persons > understanding of a particular subject? For example if I were > interested in the Martial Arts and wanted to learn from the founder of > a particular style, could CRV achieve this?

Yes. In fact, I think that that is the main reason for the excelleration of the learning curve which is presently taking place in CRV training. (See the web page under "A wonderful thing".) In group training, we appear to not just be mentally sharing target information as a "collective unconscious", but the skills for finding the information, as well. It's as though we have passed the 100th monkey. When one person learns the skill, it appears to help the other students get it more quickly.

>.......And how much (of that leader's style) could be learned?

I have no idea. Some day, it may be possible to learn most of another person's skills through CRV or something derived from it. That won't prevent the need of practice, but the learning may be so excellerated that it will greatly speed up the preparation time. In the event of martial arts (and many other skills requiring strengent self-discipline), that may not be as desirable as you might think. Along with the learning of those skills, there is a "mind set" required to actually putting them into practice. If, in learning a particular skill over night, you also do a complete change of mind-set, the chaos that that could cause in your mental - not to mention social - makeup could be so radical as to appear like insanity to those around you. There is no way to learn a self-discipline-type skill like martial arts (or CRV for that matter) without a personality change, simply because it does require an alteration of mind-set in order to accomplish it. Without the change of mind-set, the skills would be useless. In your example, let's say you could swiftly acquire the physical skills of an umpteenth-level Ninja assassin, but didn't also acquire the mind-set required for putting it into practice. What would you have accomplished? Let's say, on the other hand, you acquire the business and negotiating skills of Andrew Carnegie, but didn't also acquire the "run over everyone in your path" mind-set. Where would it get you in business?

While I like the fact that CRV can be used to learn someone else's skills, I'm not sure it is always the best way. There is a lot to be said for the journey each person must take to get to the mastery of those skills by themselves.

> 2. Is it possible to read a file/book/letter using CRV?

Yes. This is the one that everyone talks about as being the ultimate task of CRV. There is a big "however", though. (Isn't there always?) The impression everyone gets is that of a person sitting in a CRV session, glibly writing down the information, word for word, off a document locked in a security vault in some foreign country's top secret installation. It doesn't happen that way. The CRV task to do that is called (Ingo's terminology, here) "analytics". It is a painfully slow process, and may take months to get a single page of a document. If that document is worth it, then you might want to put your best CRV resources to doing it. If not, it may be a better idea to have them doing other things.

There are also two definitions to the question you asked. On the one hand, the tasker might want to know what the document says. That is, just a summary. On the other hand, the tasker might want to know EXACTLY what the document says. That is where "analytics" comes into play, and the process slows down. An example? Here's a good one: I have an encrypted file. First, I want you to tell me what it says (summary) so I can act on it. Next, I want you to tell me EXACTLY what it says. That way, I have the enciphered text and its deciphered equivalent. Now I can use the information you have provided to break the code.

Still, I think that as you asked the question, the answer would be "No." You don't take a short course in CRV and start breaking out documents locked in safes. It takes LOTS of experience, practice, self-discipline, etc. etc. etc. before you can ever get to this stage. Probably the best actual example of this is one of the women who was in the military project. I wrote a statement on a sheet of paper as a target and, thinking it would be funny, wrote it in Russian. She came back with a series of scribbles on her paper which made no sense to her at all. She didn't speak Russian. While the scribbles she wrote looked like a child's first attempts at printing, the main words (subject and verb) were still unmistakably printed there. I told her what I had done and that she had done it very well, and asked her what it meant. She answered that she didn't know because she didn't know Russian.

> 3. How does Controlled Remote Viewing differ from Technical Remote > Viewing?

In hundreds of ways. While Ed originally based his training on Ingo Swann's methodology, he has altered it in ways which, as far as I can tell, should totally obliterate a trainee's chance to "get the target". He uses a list of descriptor words, and the student is supposed to do a "multiple choice" guess of which words correctly describe the target. I have heard that people are learning to do rudimentary RV work using his technique, but I honestly don't see how. But then, I see experimental aircraft, and am constantly amazed at what wierd kinds of things >>won't<< fall from the sky. I think that Ed's students are learning to do RV work in spite of his method, but that his method gives them a structured framework within which to succeed. If that is the case, then there is still quite a bit of value to it.

I kept the military unit's database for years, and over that time, saw "improvements" made to the Swann method hundreds of times. Hundreds of times, I watched as the results in the database went down and down and down as a result of the improvements. I'm not saying that there is no way to improve on the Swann methodology. I'm sure that there are. Some of those "improvements" caused the results to go up. What I am saying is that you have to judge each method by its results, not by who is teaching it, whether it makes sense or not, how it is advertised, or whatever other criteria might be used. It is the results which form the bottom line.


[Archive Note: Lyn Buchanan, former U.S. Intell RV]

>..I'd like to know if there were any casualties did any of the >remote viewers become mentally unstable (in the long or short term) due to >'significant protocol violations'.. and /or.. operational targets which >may have been badly defined ?

Yes. Long and short term.



[Archive Note: Joseph McMoneagle, former U.S. Intell RV]

Sarah... you noted you were having problems "waking" up after a session.. You are not sleeping my dear, you are zonked (to use the scientific term)... yes you will have a problem unzonking and it can take up to two or three hours so stay away from heavy machinery, cars etc... Long termed affects... actually none that were ever recorded... there can be a little visible stress when viewers can't "get it up" if you will.. in other words can't get on target... but when they finally get there the tension leaves and the confidence returns... Now back to Zonking.... zonking is an after-effect of the altered state... the deeper you go the more zonked you get... You need to work on your relaxation exercises and you need to work with your monitor... YOU ARE USING A MONITOR ---RIGHT!!! and he/she can do a lot to keep you from falling through the floor.... Regardz...Gene...

[Archive Note: Gene Kincaid, former U.S. Intell RV]

<< Sarah... you noted you were having problems "waking" up after a session.. You are not sleeping my dear, you are zonked (to use the scientific term)... yes you will have a problem unzonking and it can take up to two or three hours so stay away from heavy machinery, cars etc... Long termed affects... actually none that were ever recorded... >>

Ha! Zonked is a great word for it! But for me is not just for 2-3 hours after a session, is reflected in my sleeping patterns for several days. How come nobody ever did a study on sleeping habits after a viewer has been working targets?? Seems like a logical thing to consider...

<< there can be a little visible stress when viewers can't "get it up" if you will.. in other words can't get on target... but when they finally get there the tension leaves and the confidence returns... Now back to Zonking.... zonking is an after-effect of the altered state... the deeper you go the more zonked you get... You need to work on your relaxation exercises and you need to work with your monitor... YOU ARE USING A MONITOR ---RIGHT!!! and he/she can do a lot to keep you from falling through the floor.... Regardz...Gene... >>

Hahaha... good one Gene!! ::smirks:: I wish I had a monitor! Are you willing to fly out to Cal? I make a wonderful Lasagna. <WEG> I know that I need one. Finding one is a different story. It would be nice to have a monitor to keep me on track though.... I had an experience once where I was working a target and started vomiting... would have been nice to have a monitor around.

As for tension and confidence, I generally don't stress out on being on the target, I figure that is only going make it worse, and either I am going to have a good session, or I am not. Missing a target doesn't make me any worse of a person.. just means I wasn't "on" that day. So anyway, that cute little rationalization helps to keep me relaxed. If I am having real trouble I usually just pack it up and try it another day.

Thanks for lending the advice!


David Hathcock wrote: >Was it meant that RV training couldn't affect one way or the other >a person's NATURAL PSI abilities? -- then -- Joseph McMoneagate wrote: >>The latter part of your statement is essentially what I believe to >>be true. You can test it yourself. >> . . . train for about a year using any system and do it again. >>[ie.: test yourself] I'm betting you will not see any substantial >>improvement in psychic functioning. >> I'm saying that your innate >> talent level probably won't change.

Now I'm completely confused. What's all this, then, about getting better with practise? Are we actually improving only our ACCESS to our EXISTING psi abilities?

Rick L

Moderator's Note: Yes, that seems to be the case, Rick. What's ironic is that this alone should be amazing. "Bringing out the natural talent" is what every musician hopes to find in a coach or teacher. The problem is that rather than this having been presented to people rationally to begin with, most people were introduced to this RV subject through a couple of people on the radio insisting everyone could be "100% accurate" and "nearly omniscient" if they only had enough money to pay for a 7-10 day class. The claims were so hyped up that by the time people realize what is truly possible, they react as if they're deeply disappointed.

But they shouldn't be. There is plenty to be fascinated with and dedicated to in RV just like in music, martial arts, painting, or anything else. Realizing that nobody can hand it to you is difficult. Then realizing that you're stuck with what you've already got, so to speak, is harder, because most people think they haven't got much of any psi talent, and they're the one person who'll fail. Most people are wrong. Once again, it boils down more to psychology than psi. Dealing with the inevitable let down of people who were introduced to this subject via some hyped up nonsense is one of the bummer parts of being "a realist" in this field. -- PJ

Hello Viewmisters,

A few weeks ago I worked a WEB Target and came up with some fair data and an very strong feelig of WHAT the target was. So I did an AOL and wrote it down followed by its discriptors.( which seems to work well for the actual target data) By the end of the session, the thought of that AOL was all there was and at that I called it quits. But, I was left with what I call an OOGY feeling, Just a real weird feeling. The VERY NEXT TARGET I worked WAS (Via feedback Photo) the structure I had AOLed in the previous session, and that OOGY feeling left me. Do any of you wonderfull V'ratti have an inckling as to what that was all about? Would that be considered crosswiring ? :)


> what I call an OOGY feeling, Just a real weird feeling. The VERY NEXT > TARGET I worked WAS (Via feedback Photo) the structure I had AOLed in the > previous session, and that OOGY feeling left me. Do any of you wonderfull > V'ratti have an inckling as to what that was all about? Would that be > considered crosswiring ? :)

A few years ago, the viewers within the unit were run through a series of targets as part of a specific training experiment. An outside source acted as a beacon; the targets were a set of 6 or 8 sites throughout a region of Europe. My results for the first target were unsatisfying. The second, worse; the third, I was off on Mars somewhere. By the end of the experiment, I had not hit a single target, though during that time period, I was literally nailing targets left and right operationally. My results from this particular experiment were so atypical to my usual ability, the project manager and I sat down with all of the targets in front of us. It became immediately obvious that with each session, my results were nailing the next target to be run. In other words, my session one results recorded target #2, #2 session results identified #3, etc. We all had a good laugh over this one. Why this happens, I don't know. Sometimes I think that the Signal Line also has a sense of humor.

Final Note: Although I "perceived" myself as really stepping on it at the time, it's just the nature of the beast. The overall results of the unit's most consistent viewers e.g. the CRVers, was nearly always 1/3 - 1/3 - 1/3; that is, 33% of the time we were right on, 33% of the time there was some correlation of the date and 33% of the time, we know what! There were specially operations were some of the viewers were right on 70%+ of the time. Who knows???


[Archive Note: Greg Sloan, former U.S. Intell RV]

October 1997

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